@MirSobhan that's a false dichotomy, and one I don't subscribe to. There's always room for a strong moral philosophy, even in a pragmatic position. The problem is when there's no intention of convincing people, but just bludgeoning them to death with shibboleths
A real-life anecdote from today on "convincing" people is that some researchers unaware that #Overleaf is on an #OpenCore model were delighted to hear about the #AGPL 'd branch - source [1] - example instance [2]. I did *not* try to convince anyone - I just pointed out the possibility and gave URLs. And a new (non-public) overleaf instance may be the result!
the FSF sees Free Software as a political goal, KDE sees this moment as an opportunity to grow their userbase. I think both approaches are useful. Pragmatism is good but it's also good that there's someone out there who will accept ZERO compromise.
@yearofthebug I'm not talking about "idealism vs pragmatism": I am talking about leading the conversation when it comes to software freedom. The FSF is not talking to actual people: it's just a circlejerk that is not meant to convince anybody except the already initiated
I agree, I guess I see their role as providers of resources and organization to the already initiated (mostly on the legal side) while leaving to other organization the winning over of new converts.
@yearofthebug that's a great way to become completely useless. I want the FSF to be a leading voice, not the moral justification on the back end of the movement.
A movement who can't bring people in will be useless but a movement without a strong political/teoretical justification will get lost along its way. I think we can observe this in the way "Open Source" has been widely accepted by corporation while "Free Software" has been memoryholed by the mainstream.
@yearofthebug that's just because Open Source has always been a great way for corporations to take advantage of the work of volunteers—something that now it's draining the volunteer pool and led to all the discussions on sustainability of the entire endeavour.
And yes: the free software movement has been impacted by FSF navel gazing, which is precisely what I'm complaining about.
The FSF has long ceased to be a leading voice on user freedom, but that’s fine: there are many organizations doing that work now, in various areas and from different angles, just like the endof10.org example shows.
Misano
in reply to Emmanuele Bassi • • •Emmanuele Bassi
in reply to Misano • • •Boud
in reply to Emmanuele Bassi • • •@MirSobhan
Just adding endof10.org here for convenience.
A real-life anecdote from today on "convincing" people is that some researchers unaware that #Overleaf is on an #OpenCore model were delighted to hear about the #AGPL 'd branch - source [1] - example instance [2]. I did *not* try to convince anyone - I just pointed out the possibility and gave URLs. And a new (non-public) overleaf instance may be the result!
[1] github.com/overleaf/overleaf
[2] latex.ouvaton.coop
End of 10
End of 10Ipecac
in reply to Emmanuele Bassi • • •Emmanuele Bassi
in reply to Ipecac • • •Ipecac
in reply to Emmanuele Bassi • • •Emmanuele Bassi
in reply to Ipecac • • •Ipecac
in reply to Emmanuele Bassi • • •Emmanuele Bassi
in reply to Ipecac • • •@yearofthebug that's just because Open Source has always been a great way for corporations to take advantage of the work of volunteers—something that now it's draining the volunteer pool and led to all the discussions on sustainability of the entire endeavour.
And yes: the free software movement has been impacted by FSF navel gazing, which is precisely what I'm complaining about.
Ludovic Courtès
in reply to Emmanuele Bassi • • •The FSF has long ceased to be a leading voice on user freedom, but that’s fine: there are many organizations doing that work now, in various areas and from different angles, just like the endof10.org example shows.
@yearofthebug
crp8a
in reply to Emmanuele Bassi • • •Emmanuele Bassi
in reply to crp8a • • •crp8a
in reply to Emmanuele Bassi • • •Emmanuele Bassi
in reply to crp8a • • •