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Recently while catching up on posts, I came across a thread stating that it was a fact that listening to an audiobook counts as reading. The post was couched in a highly dogmatic way which suggested there wasn’t much room for debate, so I chose not to contribute.
However, having taken a day to think about it, I’m concerned about leaving this view unchallenged because I genuinely believe that it is potentially harmful to the education, and therefore the economic prospects, of young blind people.
The first point I want to make is that there is absolutely nothing wrong with enjoying a great audiobook. A good narrator can make a book come to life. I don’t believe an audiobook is inferior. Although I don’t listen to many audiobooks anymore just as a matter of choice, I do opt for an audiobook when someone is reading their own autobiography. That’s because rather than read the book, I would rather listen to someone reading their own book to me.
But when I choose to listen to an audiobook, I am no more reading the book than my grandchild is reading it when I read a book to her. She is being entertained, in some cases she is gaining valuable knowledge, but she is not reading it, she is being read to. There is benefit in this. It could be enhancing her aural language skills.
You may be thinking that this is all pointless semantics. But the reason I’m raising it is that the “audiobooks are reading” argument has been used to deprive blind kids of true literacy. To me, true literacy is the ability to write something down and read it back. Braille is the only viable means of true literacy a blind person has. For all the good that technology has done, when talking computers came on the scene and audiobooks became more abundant, some teachers and more than a few public policy practitioner decided that these developments meant that we didn’t need to teach blind kids to read anymore. It was a means of short-changing blind kids, of not allocating the necessary funding and resources to give them a good start in life. It was disgraceful. No parent of a sighted child would tolerate being told that their kid didn’t need to read because they could just listen to audio instead.
The result was that many people who had so much to offer the world were deprived of the right to read. It is often these professionals and policy makers who want blind people to believe that listening is the same as reading.
These kids who missed out on the opportunity to read became adults with fewer employment prospects. We know that the unemployment rate of Braille readers is far closer to the unemployment rate of the population as a whole, compared with those blind people who haven’t had the opportunity to read Braille. And in a sad irony, these kids, some of whom grew up to be parents, were not given the tools to read bedtime stories to their kids when they eventually became parents. Putting on an audiobook for a child is nothing like the personal bonding that comes from a parent reading a story to a child.
Some of those kids who missed out on literacy took the brave step of learning Braille as an adult, but they know they will find it difficult to achieve the same speed they would have if they had learned Braille as a child. It is a tragedy.
While there has been a recovery, this sort of story is not yet completely in the past. It is still happening to some kids today.
Enjoy those audiobooks. I certainly do. But let’s also ensure that every blind child has the right to read by not playing into the narrative that listening to a book read by someone else is the same as reading one yourself.

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in reply to Jonathan Mosen

You make some very valid points. Overall I don't think I agree, but it is a well-stated view that deserves a hearing, so I'm boosting this.
in reply to Jonathan Mosen

The truth as it is, thank you so much! I don't agree with you on some points of your worldview like disability pride, but in this thing I'm totally with you. You are blind from birth or early childhood and you don't know Braille, — you are illiterate, sorry not sorry. Period, full stop. I'd also raise the question of grade 2 Braille, but it's another thing, I guess.
in reply to Jeffrey D. Stark

@JStark This question is far more complicated, and I have no data. I know however about one person who unfortunately passed away recently. He was sighted and got blind at 21 or so, and he was very curious about linguistics, language and so on. He knew Braille but really bad, so he only listened. And he told me many times that he started losing his literacy, misspelling words and so on. So, if there are no additional conditions like diabetes that hinder from perceiving Braille dots, I'd strongly recommend learning Braille to adult people, too.
in reply to André Polykanine

@menelion but are you going to shame someone ... say in their 40s who loses their vision for not learning braille and tell them they aren't reading? because that's the other side of the coin...
in reply to Jeffrey D. Stark

@JStark It's not shaming, it's simply… they are not reading. I mean, if you watch a video, you don't read, right? It's not shaming to say something like: "John watched all Harry Potter movies" (even if he didn't read any books by JKR). We are telling that listening is not reading, as watching is not reading, it's another part of the human brain that works, that's it. If the adult in question feels they are ashamed of not being able to read, then yes, Braille is the only solution.
in reply to André Polykanine

@menelion under that view... sensing braille isn't reading either... which makes me laugh to make this argument
in reply to Jeffrey D. Stark

@JStark Nope, it is. Basically, your brain can execute several activities with different areas of the brain. Let's take an apple:
1. You take an apple. Your brain has nothing to process, except for mapping the object in your hand to the word it has for it.
2. You see an image of an apple. In this case, the brain must process a two-dimensional image, map it to the object from p. 1 and build the full picture (smell, taste, texture and so on). Note, you see the shape and the color of the object.
3. You hear the word "apple" or "an apple". this time, your brain must process the word (a sound wave, basically) and build the full picture, this time including color, shape and other visual characteristics that are missing (because it's only a spoken word).
and 4. You *read* the word "apple". This time you basically decipher symbols, be it lines and squiggles seen by your eyes or Braille dots again seen by your eyes (which is harmful to the sight) or touched by your fingers. This time the brain has to do even more work: first process the lines and squiggles or Braille dots to find the correct word, then process the word, then build the picture (here it all goes a bit differently, for sighted people it would be a visual one, for us, blind from birth, it would be a tactile one), and then to map this picture on your knowledge about the object.
So, what I want to say, all of those activities are done with different areas of your brain. that's why listening is not reading, watching is not reading, but Braille is reading — it's the same act of deciphering totally random symbols having nothing to do with the actual object.

Matt Campbell reshared this.

in reply to André Polykanine

@menelion Studies have shown that comprehension can be similar whether you listen to an audiobook or read a text
I agree about the value of braille for kids and literacy... but we will have to differ in our view of adults and reading/audio
in reply to Jeffrey D. Stark

@JStark Again, here I have too few data, I'm sorry. If an adult has their so-to-say literary or literacy corpus already settled, then probably. Also, when I listen to a book read by TTS, I sometimes use those robotic voices with all punctuation turned on, and I have a virtual Braille line running in my brain. That's also kind of not listening per se, but something in between.
in reply to André Polykanine

@menelion Why is that people have to decide what is and what is not. If someone wants to call it reading when talking about audiobooks, let them. Gov of Minnesota stated "mind your own business". I call it reading or listening to audiobooks. What I call it is my own thing.
in reply to Holger Fiallo

@HolgerFiallo Of course. But if you read the first post by Jonathan that started this discussion, this difference begins to matter because of arguments like "We won't teach our blind children Braille because listening to audio still counts as reading."
in reply to André Polykanine

@menelion That is not right. I know Braille and have no issues with it and like to listen to audiobooks. Those who say that are not right. Those kids who are blind need to learn Braille and using audiobooks have nothing to do with it. You can do both. Parents need to help their kids understand Braille is a must.
in reply to Jonathan Mosen

I absolutely agree with you and I am glad to have learned braille at an early age. There is nothing like reading a good braille book or using a braille display to read a book that audio will just never be able to accomplish in the same way, because listening to audio takes away the thought in putting in time to create the images of scenes in your mind, whereas for braille, you need to do that to get a better understanding of the story. Blind children and therefore blind adults, have been cheated out of the possibility to learn braille in many cases, because teachers aren't either well-equipped or aren't willing to teach blind people how to read braille, and that is probably one of the gratest disservices that could be brought upon the #blind community. I may not use braille for my job, but without braille, I may never have the possibility of being able to do things like give speeches, read booksin a fast and efficient way, Edit documents faster, or really do anything that requires braille, even my dad, great as he is, regrets the fact he doesn't know how to read braille, because when he does give speeches, he has to memorize them to make it work on the fly. he's just another victum of the fact Braille wasn't taught to him, another example of why its important that blind people learn how to read braille at an early age, I am certain I am missing other examples of how I use braille in my life because I do take it for granted that I know how to read braille at a fast an efficient speed, its just terrible to see the effects of what happens when people are cheated out of something so precious as reading braille, because your right, there are many parents out there who are blind who will never be able to do things like read bed-time stories to there kids, or do other things with there kids for which braille would help them out.
in reply to LeonianUniverse

@glaroc I think audiobooks can be a double-edged sword. A good audiobook narrator can truly make the story come to life, but conversely a bad one can ruin what would otherwise have been a great listen.
I agree with you, sometimes reading a book in Braille is vastly superior because the sounds and mental pictures you create are superior.
And yes, I’ve given hundreds of public speeches, read scripts for radio, I was live on-air when the first Gulf War broke out. Because I was a Braille reader, I was able to stay on the air and present the breaking coverage. I wouldn’t have been able to do most of the things I have done in my career without Braille, let alone create so many priceless memories with my children and granddaughter.
in reply to Jonathan Mosen

Yep, its just a whole different experience, I just think that there are people who are blind in this thread who are angry because they aquait our opinions as we're trying to stand above them when we aren't. In many cases, its really not there fault they don't know how to read braille, maybe it is because they can't because of other problems, maybe its that educators didn't teach them sufficiently, there is so many reasons why this could be the case, but I don't think that either of us are stating that because we know how to read braille and others choose to use audio books, we are superior or better in any way, but its just a fact of life that reading braille is entirely different from listening to an audio book, because braille allows you the freedom to imagine things where as an audio book doesn't give you that same freedom as you could space out and miss things that you need to actively focus on with braille. I have ADHD also for other blind people reading this reply, and I can tell you that many times, the difference between me being able to focus besides meds, was directly proportionate to me reading braille versus listening to that same exact book via audio.
in reply to LeonianUniverse

@glaroc There are a lot of complexities here. Some blind people have sadly internalised the low expectations society tends to have of blind people. I can’t think of any other minority where not being able to read would be remotely acceptable. And you’re right, it isn’t the fault of those who were denied the opportunity that should always be considered a fundamental human right. Those who seek to demean people for things outside their control are not being helpful or showing empathy.
in reply to Jonathan Mosen

Yep, the low expectations people have internalized are definitely a part of the problem. Its sad to see that people are willing to accept they'll not be able to read. Its just the cold, hard, truth to understand that basic literacy is important for anyone, sighted or blind. Imagine for example, that a sighted person never learned how to read print, that in many cases would be seen as a disservice and they'd be known as illiterate which is absolutely correct, because if they don't know how to read, even if they can listen to audio books it would still be considered illiteracy. My question is, if a sighted person not knowing how to read print is considered illiterate, why can't a blind person not knowing how to read braille be held to the same standard? I think in many cases, blind people want some sort of special treatment, because it would justify in there minds that because they can read audio books, even if they don't know braille, they are still more than literate when the truth is they aren't because they can't read in a way that is most common for a blind person to be able to do, even if its just grade 1 braille. If we hold sightted person's literacy standards as they should be able to read print, then we should hold the same standard for blind peoples' literacy as they should be able to read braile, its just the way it should be, and yes, I realize in doing so I am calling my dad illiterate in the process, but even he admits it.
in reply to LeonianUniverse

I think there's a reasonable distinction that should be drawn, if the person can produce properly written text, by typing, for example. Someone who knows the alphabet and knows how words are spelt is not, in a useful sense of the word, illiterate. Just as someone who has read print and loses their sight doesn't become illiterate because of that. For what it's worth though, I agree learning braille is important, and that it makes certain things much easier to learn (spelling, foreign languages, maths, programming...). I know and use braille. It's just not convincing to me that listening to a book through a synthetic voice isn't reading, though. That you don't get the same out of it might well be a you thing.

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in reply to modulux

@modulux @glaroc When I listen to my computer reading a summary of a chart at work, I hear data.
When I hear that same voice reading me communication between ground control and a spaceship, I hear the voices filtered through radios and the roar of the ship's engines. if I'm listening to a passage on a sailing vessel, I hear the creek of wood, the billow of sailcloth. And if I'm reading media I already now, like star Trek, even though I know it's still text-to-speech, in my head, it's the actor's voices.

It's all about context, and I'm pretty sure if you scanned my brain whilst I was listening to a synthetic reading of a novel, different parts of it would be doing things than for using that same text-to-speech system to listen to an email.

in reply to modulux

@modulux @glaroc Yep. I read books using text to speech. If I hear a word I don't know how to spell I can get whatever I'm using to spell it. It of course doesn't solve homophones. I only just in the last few years learnt there's waist and waste.
As I've said before, I love Braille, but sadly because of various things it's not practical for me, which annoys me.
in reply to Kara Goldfinch

To be fair, English is especially difficult about that. It's often hard to know how something will be spelt, and sometimes even hard to know how something written down should be read outloud. In that regard, a TTS making a mistake can lead to funny problems. I don't remember examples right now, but I mispronounced words due to the way Eloquence says them. But then, if I read them in braille, I wouldn't have known how to say them either.
Unknown parent

Jonathan Mosen

@weirdwriter @jscholes Thanks for your thoughts. Reading raised print is definitely a useful skill, and I agree that raised print, unlike audio, is reading. Again, I also think audio is a valid way of absorbing and conveying information. But raised print is not a substitute for Braille. History teaches us this. If you have the inclination, you might look at my keynote address written to the International Council on English Braille to celebrate the 200th anniversary of the invention of the Braille code. mosen.org/iceb2024/

For most of history, blind people weren’t even considered worthy of being educated at all. Despite this, there had been successful blind people in a wide range of disciplines. Some people are so talented, they’ll succeed no matter what. When the first school for the blind was established in Paris, it was naturally assumed that blind people should read the way everyone else did, using print. So laborious ways were devised of creating raised print books. They were incredibly bulky, but most important, even those who mastered the technique were slow readers. Initially at least, it was also not possible for a blind person to write using this method, and read back what they had written. What is little known is that Louis Braille got this problem fixed too, when he invented the system of representing print as dots. This system has made possible the dot matrix printer, today’s digital camera, and screens. Yet another source of blind pride for me.
When Louis Braille devised his system, it was met with enthusiasm by his blind peers, but huge resistance by some sighted people who didn’t like it because it wasn’t “normal”. At the height of the backlash, the Braille code was actually banned, and Braille books were burned.
In the end, even the principal of the school for the blind in Paris had to back down after a public demonstration at which blind kids were reading Braille, which had now become an underground code and therefore even more attractive, way faster than anyone had ever read raised print. The lesson was that the average blind person could read Braille far faster, with greater proficiency, than they could read raised print. Plus, they had the slate and stylus for effectively taking notes. The Braille code is a wonderful example of self-determination. Blind people solving our own problems, doing it our way and coming up with superior alternative techniques.
Even though the outcomes spoke for themselves, the United States went through what is now known as the “War of the Dots”, where sighted people in powerful positions opposed Braille despite the overwhelming evidence of its efficacy. It wasn't until the middle of the 20th century that the US signed onto a code for the English speaking world.
Then war on Braille was declared all over again when mainstreaming became the norm, so Braille production required more resourcing, then talking computers came along and were thought by some to be a substitute. You only need look at the quality of some of the spelling coming from many blind people on email lists to know the truth of that one.
The problem we have in this thread is that it has exposed a shortcoming I didn’t touch on in my original post, and should have. Too many people who become fully blind later in life are undersold the value of Braille, and not given an opportunity to learn it. I’ve been deeply touched to read the account of @dhamlinmusic, who became blind in the most horrible circumstances imaginable, and fought for his right to read Braille. He now benefits from his victory in many ways including the relationship with his child, who he can read to.
I have fought for the rights of blind people in many ways every day of my adult life, and I would never blame or shame anyone for being deprived of resources. That is not their fault and it is not your fault. I do, however, unequivocally call out those agencies, often led by sighted people and staffed in the main by sighted people, who downplay the value of Braille as a tool for many blind adults with potentially years ahead of them of productivity and employability.
Those who have talent and are struggling to have that talent recognised or monetised may have had less of a struggle if they were equipped with Braille skills. Again, that is the fault of the system, not the individual. And it annoys me when people blame blind individuals who are in fact the victims of a system that failed them.

in reply to Jonathan Mosen

Thank you for sharing your perspective. As the author of the post I assume is being referenced, I'd like to provide some context:

Recently, I've encountered several elitist viewpoints on this subject, using phrases like quote "the proper way" unquote to consume literature. I strongly disagree with any implication that there are right and wrong ways to educate and entertain oneself through books.

However, I acknowledge that my post could have made its scope clearer, and you're not the only one to mention how this view is weaponized in educational settings. Regardless of the reasons, making counterproductive and lazy decisions on behalf of disabled students is unacceptable.

I hold certain educators and educational systems responsible for the fact that blind and low-vision students too often leave school with subpar literacy levels. While they may justify their approaches with certain rhetoric, it's their actions and agendas that are at fault—whether rooted in ignorance, misguided attempts to compensate for lack of funding, or other reasons. However, the rhetoric itself shouldn't be automatically blamed for how people choose to interpret and misuse it.

As for the differences in brain activity between different consumption methods, some studies suggest that in adults, listening and reading by sight or touch aren't as different as commonly thought. I notice you've received responses stating the opposite, but I don't have the expertise to state one position over another.

Semantics aside, I think we can agree that consuming material that educates and uplifts is more important than ever, regardless of how people choose to do so.

in reply to James Scholes

@jscholes Thanks James. I’m not particularly interested in which part of the brain certain activities trigger, it’s irrelevant to the point I was making which was all about how we as blind people are set up to maximise our participation in society. True literacy increases our chances of having a good life, and I appreciate you acknowledging the harm these professionals are doing by depriving blind kids of the skills that are a fundamental human right.