Delta Chat

4 days ago

Delta Chat
4 days ago

#chatmail does secure email federation that works. Using lean "relay" servers that enforce metadata-minimized end-to-end encryption.

There is a new little tool that checks whether two relays are interacting well for messaging, and how fast. You need a terminal window and be able to execute:

pip install cmping

you can then run for example:

cmping mailchat.pl nine.testrun.org

to perform a "ping" test for e2ee-messaging. Also see chatmail.at/relays

github.com/chatmail/cmping/

screenshot of a command installable with "pip install cmping".
(venv) hpk@gamma:~$ cmping mailchat.pl nine.testrun.org

# using accounts_dir at: /home/hpk/.cache/cmping

CMPING mailchat.pl(jscsiirgr@mailchat.pl) -> nine.testrun.org(76yzfhcig@nine
64 bytes ME -> mailchat.pl -> nine.testrun.org -> ME seq=0 time=899.98ms
64 bytes ME -> mailchat.pl -> nine.testrun.org -> ME seq=1 time=537.55ms
64 bytes ME -> mailchat.pl -> nine.testrun.org -> ME seq=2 time=583.42ms
64 bytes ME -> mailchat.pl -> nine.testrun.org -> ME seq=11 time=555.63ms
...
64 bytes ME -> mailchat.pl -> nine.testrun.org -> ME seq=12 time=560.16ms
64 bytes ME -> mailchat.pl -> nine.testrun.org -> ME seq=13 time=543.74ms
64 bytes ME -> mailchat.pl -> nine.testrun.org -> ME seq=14 time=641.86ms
64 bytes ME -> mailchat.pl -> nine.testrun.org -> ME seq=15 time=649.15ms
64 bytes ME -> mailchat.pl -> nine.testrun.org -> ME seq=25 time=553.25ms
64 bytes ME -> mailchat.pl -> nine.testrun.org -> ME seq=26 time=583.68ms
64 bytes ME -> mailchat.pl -> nine.testrun.org -> ME seq=27 time=641.81ms
64 bytes ME -> mailchat.pl -> nine.testrun.org -> ME seq=28 time=650.70ms
64 bytes ME -> mailchat.pl -> nine.testrun.org -> ME seq=29 time=558.98ms
--- jscsiirgr@mailchat.pl -> 76yzfhcig@nine.testrun.org statistics ---

30 transmitted, 30 received, 0.00% loss

rtt min/avg/max/mdev = 537.554/596.469/899.980/71.002 ms

Chatmail: Relays

Chatmail provides FOSS infrastructure for interoperable, secure, speedy and reliable end-to-end encrypted messaging. Check out clients as Arcane Chat, Bots or Delta Chat today!

^chatmail.at

#chatmail

in reply to Delta Chat

leberschnitzel

in reply to Delta Chat 4 days ago

is there a point where this should mean "better upgrade the server"? What are good/bad values?

in reply to leberschnitzel

@leberschnitzel no, it depends on location, and maybe speed of dns resolution. Note that the ping is measuring the time from client (me) to one server, to another server and to the client, so travel over four network connections.

@leberschnitzel

in reply to Delta Chat

Radasbona

in reply to Delta Chat 4 days ago

i opened DC today and a message from 5 days ago poped up. As usually. 🤨

my telegram, signal and matrix client has realtime notification via #UnifiedPush

Deltachat is unuseable. Sorry guys.
Fast S2S is less important than fast push to client.

#UnifiedPush

in reply to Radasbona

Delta Chat

in reply to Radasbona 4 days ago

@radasbona Do you run some Unified Push distributor such as ntfy in background? If you can run Unified Push distributor, what does prevent running Delta Chat the same way?

@Radasbona

in reply to Delta Chat

Radasbona

in reply to Delta Chat 4 days ago

easy, because in this case i have two in background. only one is necessary.

(btw: i forgot the mastodon client)

in reply to Radasbona

Delta Chat

in reply to Radasbona 4 days ago

If the problem boils down to the users allowing UnifiedPush client to run and denying the same permission to Delta Chat, then it is not interesting to spend development effort on it as the problem can be solved by allowing DC to run in the background. We do support FCM (besides Ubuntu Touch and Apple) notifications for the phones that do not allow to run apps in background, but there you cannot run UnifiedPush as well.

in reply to Delta Chat

Radasbona

in reply to Delta Chat 4 days ago

the clients using unifiedpush DOESN'T have permission to run in the background.

in reply to Radasbona

Delta Chat

in reply to Radasbona 4 days ago

@radasbona "UnifiedPush client" means distributor client such as Ntfy client, in the message above, not Telegram, Signal and Matrix.

@Radasbona

in reply to Delta Chat

Radasbona

in reply to Delta Chat 4 days ago

yes.
That is the only necessary background connection. (Foss & self hosted)

Imagine every client demands a connection on his own. (like Deltachat)

in reply to Radasbona

feld

in reply to Radasbona 4 days ago

I get instant pushes on Desktop, Android (GrapheneOS), and iOS...

in reply to feld

Radasbona

in reply to feld 4 days ago

@feld jep.
Imap-idle aka. imap push

@feld

in reply to Radasbona

feld

in reply to Radasbona 4 days ago

My push notifications on iOS are not IMAP Push, and neither are they on GrapheneOS. Only Desktop is IMAP Push

in reply to feld

Radasbona

in reply to feld 4 days ago

@feld ups sorry - yes. apple push of course.

and graphene? fcm?

@feld

in reply to Radasbona

feld

in reply to Radasbona 4 days ago

Yes. The pushes from DeltaChat have no identifying data/metadata, it just wakes up the app. Also the custom push server used for APNS/FCM scrubs the token from memory after the push is complete. Apple/Google may be able to see there was a notification destined for your device, but nothing else.

in reply to feld

Radasbona

in reply to feld 4 days ago

@feld thanks.

So DeltaChat supports push delivery 3rd party, and unifiedpush is the well established standard for free Android phones. 💁

@feld

in reply to Radasbona

feld

in reply to Radasbona 4 days ago

I think we could argue until the dogs come home about whether or not it's enough of an "established standard" when the number of users who refuse to use Google Play Services on their phones is dangerously close to zero and the number of apps available that implemented Unified Push is a rounding error when compared to the entire Android apps ecosystem

Delta has to target the common user first before it can expend the effort satisfying a very niche userbase

in reply to feld

feld

in reply to feld 4 days ago

I should clarify: if you contributed UnifiedPush to the app, I don't think it would be rejected. More devs joining the project would be welcomed.

in reply to feld

Radasbona

in reply to feld 3 days ago

@feld here in Germany, it is really not close to zero.

here is a huge data sensitive community.

@feld

in reply to Radasbona

feld

in reply to Radasbona 3 days ago

I don't disagree that we need to move that direction long term. Escaping the controls of FAANG is paramount.

in reply to Delta Chat

LΞX/NØVΛ 🇪🇺

in reply to Delta Chat 4 days ago

won't install it in root os, i will not host any relay until a docker image exist.

in reply to LΞX/NØVΛ 🇪🇺

feld

in reply to LΞX/NØVΛ 🇪🇺 4 days ago

we need more docker testers

github.com/chatmail/relay/pull…

Rebased PR: add docker compose for installing a chatmail relay by missytake · Pull Request #664 · chatmail/relay

Thanks @Keonik1 for #614 :) I had a lot of fun with git rebase to break it up into small, reviewable chunks. It's still a lot, but doable :) Before we can merge this, we need to merge: cmdepl...

^GitHub

in reply to LΞX/NØVΛ 🇪🇺

Dusty

in reply to LΞX/NØVΛ 🇪🇺 3 days ago

@lexinova sooner would I install a #flatpak, or #LXC/ #Incus container, not #Docker.

#Flatpak #docker #incus #lxc @LΞX/NØVΛ 🇪🇺

in reply to Dusty

LΞX/NØVΛ 🇪🇺

in reply to Dusty 3 days ago

@d1 actually if you run fedora when you install "docker" from repo, it's not docker but the moby-engine (also made by docker but it's an open framework).

docker is used everywhere so they would touch more people by making first a docker image (compatible podman).

@Dusty

in reply to LΞX/NØVΛ 🇪🇺

Jarrod Urban

in reply to LΞX/NØVΛ 🇪🇺 3 days ago

@lexinova @d1 It is just Python. If you do not want to install it with pip you could use a Python virtual environment.

It is almost as easy as running a bash script.

@Dusty @LΞX/NØVΛ 🇪🇺

in reply to Jarrod Urban

Delta Chat

in reply to Jarrod Urban 3 days ago

probably the previous posts were about running a relay, not just the "cmping" tool we highlighted in the top level post. all the custom code in relays is also done in python btw. Overview on relay architecture got reworked lately chatmail.at/doc/relay/overview…

Technical overview - chatmail relay documentation

^chatmail.at

This entry was edited (3 days ago)

in reply to Delta Chat

LΞX/NØVΛ 🇪🇺

in reply to Delta Chat 3 days ago

@jarrodu @d1 yes but it do not remove my answer on the fact i have no intent to run something on the os itself, if no docker image (or equivalent containerized image) is available i will certainly never install it.

Because with docker image i can backup a docker compose and the file.

on basic os it's more complicated

@Jarrod Urban @Dusty

in reply to Jarrod Urban

Dusty

in reply to Jarrod Urban 3 days ago

@jarrodu @lexinova There are tons of moving parts in the diagrams: chatmail.at/doc/relay/overview…

When I see a bunch of moving parts like that, I get cold feet, that it'll be as easy as people make out. Is there a Youtube/Peertube video on this? If it's as easy as you claim, then I'd like to see a from-scratch install on #Debian 12, using python's uv for the package manager of chatrelay (in a uv venv). Including sending initial testing messages proving it's working in production.

Technical overview - chatmail relay documentation

^chatmail.at

#debian @Jarrod Urban @LΞX/NØVΛ 🇪🇺

in reply to Dusty

Delta Chat

in reply to Dusty 3 days ago

@d1 @jarrodu @lexinova Dusty, not quite sure what you mean with "tons of moving parts". It's true that we are aren't very strong in the "providing videos" game 😂 be our guest :)

@Jarrod Urban @Dusty @LΞX/NØVΛ 🇪🇺

in reply to Delta Chat

LΞX/NØVΛ 🇪🇺

in reply to Delta Chat 3 days ago

@d1 @jarrodu i say it again... if you don't have docker image, don't expect see many relay.

Mastodon usage for self hosting exploded from when they proposed one.

@Jarrod Urban @Dusty

in reply to Dusty

Jarrod Urban

in reply to Dusty 3 days ago

@d1 @lexinova
Debian 13 is out now. If you are thinking of doing that, I would recommend using it. I am using it for all my systems.

@Dusty @LΞX/NØVΛ 🇪🇺

This entry was edited (3 days ago)

in reply to Jarrod Urban

Delta Chat

in reply to Jarrod Urban 3 days ago

@jarrodu main blocker for upgrading to Debian 13 is this issue: github.com/chatmail/relay/issu… if you subscribe there, you'll hear news when they come in. For now, we regard debian 12 as a fine target environment. If dovecot folks would finally merge our speed-patch github.com/dovecot/core/pull/2… then that would be a incentive for us to move to a new debian.

Upgrade to Dovecot 2.4.0

Dovecot 2.4 has compatibility-breaking changes, so configs will need upgrade: https://doc.dovecot.org/2.4.0/installation/upgrade/2.3-to-2.4.html https://web.archive.org/web/20250310165315/https://d...

^{link2xt (GitHub)}

@Jarrod Urban

in reply to Delta Chat

Dusty

in reply to Delta Chat 1 day ago

@jarrodu thanks for the link, glad to hear there's a proposed solution

@Jarrod Urban

in reply to Jarrod Urban

LΞX/NØVΛ 🇪🇺

in reply to Jarrod Urban 3 days ago (Received 2 days ago)

@jarrodu @d1 and it's simply a nope for me, installing something on the system EVEN PYTHON, is a liability when you need an upgrade of OS, as a python update can break it.

@Jarrod Urban @Dusty

in reply to LΞX/NØVΛ 🇪🇺

Teoh Han Hui

in reply to LΞX/NØVΛ 🇪🇺 2 days ago

@lexinova @jarrodu @d1 Use venv, e.g. `python3 -m venv ~/.venv/chatmail` + `. ~/.venv/chatmail/bin/activate`

docs.python.org/3/library/venv…

venv — Creation of virtual environments

Source code: Lib/venv/ The venv module supports creating lightweight “virtual environments”, each with their own independent set of Python packages installed in their site directories. A virtual en...

^{Python documentation}

@Jarrod Urban @Dusty @LΞX/NØVΛ 🇪🇺

in reply to Teoh Han Hui

Dusty

in reply to Teoh Han Hui 2 days ago

@teohhanhui @lexinova @jarrodu Thanks for that. I've used venvs before for a couple other python projects (copyparty being the most server-like). It becomes non-trivial when you want to set up a systemd service to start a server at boot time, and the venv must be invoked from systemd. Can systemd start, stop, disable, and enable the service reliably from the command line (systemctl)? Everyone apparently assumes these things are simple; hand-waving away such details as trivialities, but no they aren't trivial.

@Teoh Han Hui @Jarrod Urban @LΞX/NØVΛ 🇪🇺

in reply to Dusty

Delta Chat

in reply to Dusty 2 days ago

@d1 Chatmail relay uses systemd to run services in a venv. All the work setting this up is done by "cmdeploy" script, so you don't need to manage this yourself: chatmail.at/doc/relay/getting_…

As for "cmping", if you just want to run the command, you can install pipx.pypa.io/ and run `pipx run cmping example.org example.net`. pipx will manage creation of venv and setting up cmping package from PyPI.

Syntax-highlighted systemd unit of filtermail as used by chatmail relays

pipx

execute binaries from Python packages in isolated environments

^pipx.pypa.io

@Dusty

in reply to Delta Chat

Dusty

in reply to Delta Chat 3 days ago

I, for one, am waiting for them to support #Debian 13, not 12 (for chatmail relay). #Postfix changed their config variables as of 13; I'm concerned about an ugly upgrade path from 12 to 13.

#debian #postfix

This entry was edited (3 days ago)

in reply to Delta Chat

ANDREQ 🇷🇺

in reply to Delta Chat 3 days ago (Received 2 days ago)

Ok.. I love DC, here I have no problems with it, but why (without going into technical details, implementation).... On my phone, pure Lineage OS without Google services, without anything! Notifications are received on Telegram and WhatsApp, but there are always difficulties in Deltachat. Why! Just explain to me (maybe not even to me, in simple terms... for those who are very far from programming) why is there no simple implementation?! What's in the way?!

in reply to ANDREQ 🇷🇺

Delta Chat

in reply to ANDREQ 🇷🇺 2 days ago

@pescetarian Do you have "Instant Delivery" settings enabled in the notifications section?

@ANDREQ 🇷🇺

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Delta Chat 4 days ago • •

Delta Chat
4 days ago