probono

The file system is your friend.
Mobile #UX has been alinenating users from the file system (so that Big Tech, not the user is in control) and has been dumbing down users to the point that they don't understand the concept of the hierarchical file system anymore.
Software (even open source software) increasingly tries to hide the file system from users. Or neglect it. #Gnome and Co. don't even show application icons on the ELF executables.
It needs to change.
Now. lobste.rs/s/sttul0/

Concept of files and folder unfamiliar to modern students

76 comments

^lobste.rs

in reply to probono

Federico Mena Quintero

in reply to probono • 2 years ago • •

Please read the research; hierarchical file systems are terrible for non-technical people. The findings are over 20 years old. Especially Bonnie Nardi's and Deborah Barreau's papers, which are wonderfully readable - semanticscholar.org/paper/%E2%…

“Finding and reminding” revisited: appropriate metaphors for file organization at the desktop

Semantic Scholar extracted view of "“Finding and reminding” revisited: appropriate metaphors for file organization at the desktop" by B. Nardi et al.

^{B. Nardi (SGCH)}

in reply to Federico Mena Quintero

NiceMicro

in reply to Federico Mena Quintero • 2 years ago • •

@federicomena Based on how many times I've seen Windows computers with the desktop polluted with documents and other files, and the occasional folder when some of the files are related to the same thing...

I guess I have to agree with you. Most people don't care.

@Federico Mena Quintero

in reply to probono

Garrett LeSage

in reply to probono • 2 years ago • •

Wrong assumption. It's confusing for everyone but the most technical people.

I've been involved in FOSS since 1996 and even ran user studies testing the filesystem and Linux generally (around 2006, IIRC, part of the "BetterDesktop" effort we ran at Novell/SUSE). People generally don't understand filesystem hierarchy. They get lost navigating it and so do their files.

The reason why apps manage documents instead of people using a file manager is not nefarious. It's meant to be helpful.

in reply to Garrett LeSage

matzipan

in reply to Garrett LeSage • 2 years ago • •

@garrett don't let actual research get in the way of opinions, please

@Garrett LeSage

in reply to matzipan

Garrett LeSage

in reply to matzipan • 2 years ago • •

@matzipan I'm literally talking about ***ACTUAL RESEARCH*** that we did and I was involved in. We ran numerous user studies and published the results.

@matzipan

in reply to Garrett LeSage

probono

in reply to Garrett LeSage • 2 years ago • •

@garrett @matzipan While I'd never doubt the validity of your research, the question is what conclusions to draw from it. Educate those users how to use the file system? Or "give in" and worsen the situation by shielding users from it?

@Garrett LeSage @matzipan

in reply to probono

probono

in reply to probono • 2 years ago • •

Looks like #RiscOS had a great concept to keep people from getting lost navigating the file system: In the "Save" dialog, the user literally had to drag-and-drop files somewhere into the file manager. Things never just went "somwhere". The user had to put things somewhere deliberately. Thanks @talex5 for having pointed this out.

@Thomas Leonard

in reply to probono

Garrett LeSage

in reply to probono • 2 years ago • •

@matzipan @talex5 The problem isn't putting a file "somewhere". The problem is finding that file later.

This has already been discussed forever ago. @federicomena gave several talks on this around a decade and a half ago.

Here's an interview he gave in 2011 that talks all about this subject:

derstandard.at/story/131846132…

Federico Mena-Quintero talks about the Document-Centric Desktop

GNOME founder also issues some criticism about the current state of the desktop project

^{DER STANDARD}

@Federico Mena Quintero @Thomas Leonard @matzipan

in reply to Garrett LeSage

Abandoned

in reply to Garrett LeSage • 2 years ago • •

@garrett @matzipan @talex5 @federicomena calcified conclusions to questions that never seem to go away are hints that the discussion is not really over. Not because the conclusions aren't broadly right, but because they cause narrow problems which are dismissed under the banner of broadly correct.

@Federico Mena Quintero @Garrett LeSage @Thomas Leonard @matzipan

in reply to Abandoned

Garrett LeSage

in reply to Abandoned • 2 years ago • •

@doctormo @matzipan @talex5 @federicomena As of right now, in 2022, these are all true:

The filesystem hasn't gone away.

Plugging in a phone (both iOS & Android) shows a filesystem with documents as files.

GNOME's file manager shows home directories and files by default. And you can navigate outside of $HOME if you really want to. Same for KDE's file manager.

The GTK and KDE file dialogs still show files and folders.

People in general still have problems navigating a filesystem.

@Federico Mena Quintero @Thomas Leonard @Abandoned @matzipan

in reply to Garrett LeSage

Abandoned

in reply to Garrett LeSage • 2 years ago • •

@garrett @matzipan @talex5 @federicomena the lack of continued development of xdg datadirs concerns me. Are gnome and kde out of the desktop standards game?

@Federico Mena Quintero @Garrett LeSage @Thomas Leonard @matzipan

in reply to Abandoned

matzipan

in reply to Abandoned • 2 years ago • •

@doctormo @garrett @talex5 @federicomena Isn't it at the base of flatpak?

@Federico Mena Quintero @Garrett LeSage @Thomas Leonard @Abandoned

in reply to matzipan

Garrett LeSage

in reply to matzipan • 2 years ago • •

@matzipan @doctormo @talex5 @federicomena Yeah, it's used in Flatpak.

What more needs to be done with xdg-datadirs? 🤔

@Federico Mena Quintero @Thomas Leonard @Abandoned @matzipan

in reply to Garrett LeSage

Abandoned

in reply to Garrett LeSage • 2 years ago • •

@garrett @matzipan @talex5 @federicomena sorry i meant the development of, not the use of. Xdg is one of those things that begs further discussion, like "why are photos are graphics art the same thing?", " templates¹ but not projects?", no email, not cals. Why is .local a dumping ground. Most standards get evolved when they're that close to users and desktop designers. Let's say, the expected mutation rate is not observed.

@Federico Mena Quintero @Garrett LeSage @Thomas Leonard @matzipan

in reply to Abandoned

Federico Mena Quintero

in reply to Abandoned • 2 years ago • •

@doctormo @garrett XDG specs need maintenance; they've been in "work well enough, a lot of work to change apps if the specs change" mode for a long time now.

Photos / templates / etc. are 2000s things, I think, partly from trying to be familiar with Windows/MacOS and Nautilus trying to be clever with templates (they are great for forms for expense reports!).

I like that both flatpaks and containerized services are converging on object capabilities even if done with ugly historical APIs.

@Garrett LeSage @Abandoned

in reply to Federico Mena Quintero

Federico Mena Quintero

in reply to Federico Mena Quintero • 2 years ago • •

@doctormo @garrett For example, .local and .config and friends were a way to avoid the proliferation of app-specific dotfiles or dot-dirs, and now flatpak really formalizes what goes in them. It's only of interest to sysadmins and really responsible app authors.

We wanted apps to control the data they create on behalf of users, without polluting already-messy home directories even more. So, stuff things in dot-dirs. Once you have containers, they become really useful.

@Garrett LeSage @Abandoned

in reply to Federico Mena Quintero

Abandoned

in reply to Federico Mena Quintero • 2 years ago • •

@federicomena @garrett the standardisation is exactly what's needed. cohesive corner casing and flexibility can only really be achieved with a lot of energy spent on standards discussions. Maybe we don't have that energy today. But we probably should be copying the webs processes, not just it's protocols.

@Federico Mena Quintero @Garrett LeSage

in reply to Garrett LeSage

probono

in reply to Garrett LeSage • 2 years ago • •

@garrett @matzipan @doctormo @talex5 @federicomena Being relatively new to Mastodon, I wonder whether it is good etiquette to tag everyone in replies ("@garrett @matzipan @doctormo @talex5 @federicomena") like my Mastodon instance does by default. In any case, I have my own thoughts about XDG too, tl;dr: it needs a complete overhaul. github.com/helloSystem/hello/w…

Project "XDG ng" · helloSystem/hello Wiki

Desktop system for creators with a focus on simplicity, elegance, and usability. Based on FreeBSD. Less, but better! - Project "XDG ng" · helloSystem/hello Wiki

^GitHub

@Federico Mena Quintero @Garrett LeSage @Thomas Leonard @Abandoned @matzipan

This entry was edited (2 years ago)

in reply to probono

Federico Mena Quintero

in reply to probono • 2 years ago • •

... if you are going down the "use xattrs for everything" path, you may want to read Sebastian Faubel's papers on semantic file management - organise-fw.sourceforge.net/

Organise Framework - Semantic File Management

Organise Framework is a metadata driven, end-user file management framework. It organises the files on the file system and uses RDF to store and exchange its meta information.

^{organise-fw.sourceforge.net}

⇧

probono 2 years ago • •

probono
2 years ago • •