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Incoherent game accessibility ramblings, mostly about Forza
Having a lot of fun with Forza Motorsport right now and that once again made me realize that there are people out there who actually care. I'm pretty sure none of this was actually necessary to do, but whether it was PR or employees that actually care or both, the fact is that even while it's not perfect, this is a huge, huge step in blind gaming. This is incredibly fun, even if it's ridiculously difficult and has a very steep learning curve. I'm not actually sure when I felt like this for the last time. I've played the last of us but somehow I feel like this is even bigger. I imagine that implementing blind accessibility into the last of us was less work than getting a fast paced racing game playable, but I'm also sure that one might not have happened without the other. And I'm pretty sure that this wasn't some kind of business incentive either. I can't imagine that adding blind assist features to Forza would be the thing that made or broke the games sales, and I can't imagine that outside of a pretty niche player base, anyone would care if Forza did have these features or not. But it does. And I'm very grateful for it. This is actually incredible. Very, very difficult and hard, but incredible. I wouldn't fault anybody for getting frustrated and giving up - hell I got frustrated too. But then I close the game, step away for a few hours, and find myself opening it again and trying again. The amount of settings you can tweak to get the most out of the accessibility features that are there is actually quite surprising and by all the gods I want this trend to continue. I can even play fucking multiplayer with other people! Sighted friends if I wanted! How friggin' cool is that shit?
So yeah. Are there things that could be improved? Of course. When isn't there? There's always room for improvement. But considering where we came from, basically a game where you held and released one button with the previous Forza, to this? This is amazing. I can only imagine what they could do if this accessibility mindset continued. And I really hope it does. And not just for racing games. For all games. Sorry now I'm seriously just rambling.

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in reply to Talon

Incoherent game accessibility ramblings, mostly about Forza
I'm looking to spend upwards of $500 on a wheel potentially just for this game. It would make things so much better on my end because I feel like I'm missing out on a lot of feedback just because the controller doesn't provide very much. If Microsoft took more risks, I wouldn't have to spend as much as I'm willing because they'd have a force feedback controller like Playstation does.
This entry was edited (11 months ago)
in reply to Rook

Incoherent game accessibility ramblings, mostly about Forza
@rooktallon I can tell you how it works with a wheel. My brother has one so I'm gonna try it.
@Rook
in reply to Talon

Incoherent game accessibility ramblings, mostly about Forza
Please let me know. I'm wondering how it would work and if its any easier.
in reply to Talon

Incoherent game accessibility ramblings, mostly about Forza
All of this, even though knowing me I'd give up in 5 minutes. It's fantastic what they've done.
in reply to Talon

This is a huge step forward. Accessible gaming shouldn't be an afterthought.

Let's hope that other game developers take this success on board and use it to inform their titles.

in reply to Talon

Incoherent game accessibility ramblings, mostly about Forza
I agree. I have heard others play, and I'm impressed on the accessibility
in reply to Talon

Accessibility of the new Forza for blind players, positive
Re last boost which you can read by looking at the thread: I can basically echo all of what Talon said. Sure, part of it for me is probably because I spent a lot of my childhood crashing my way through tracks in games like NFS Porsche Unleashed and watching Top Gear and other car shows, but this game, even if you’re not into the genre, is another huge step forward. I think it says a lot that even though I found starting out to be pretty hard and I wouldn’t consider myself great at the game yet, I find I keep coming back for more. A lot of it, of course, is the accessibility. And of course there are things which could be improved like the onboarding experience or having access to more information like your speed or position during a race without having to pause the game but holy shit I can actually drive these cars and take turns like a sighted person and I love it! And that’s the other thing, the cars. There’s so many of them and having played the game you can really feel how they’re different - like sure, a classic muscle car might sound much more badass than something smaller with a 4-cillinder engine but good lord they steer so much worse. But, if you find a car you like but want to improve it you can start to tune it and this is also where the game gets really fun, because you get very detailed descriptions on what each part does and you can also have the upgrades done automatically if you don’t want to go through all of them. And these tunes can have a dramatic effect on how the car feels and sounds. And that nicely leads me to the other thing that keeps me playing, the sound design is just amazing. Hearing my engine get a more aggressive growl after upgrading the exhaust, combined with hearing the pops of backfire echoing off the tracks is something else. Also, the sense of speed you hear from the whistling of a turbo, the wine of an upgraded race transmission, the rumble of the tires and the whooshes of passing scenery, it is all just sooooo satisfying and not a feeling I got from any other audio racing game. It’s just this fact that I get to experience these feelings properly like anyone else playing this game, that’s the amazing part. What the accessibility team at Turn 10 did, with help of @superblindman’s consulting, it’s awesome. This year for #GameAccessibility has been absolutely huge and I love it!
in reply to Pitermach

Accessibility of the new Forza for blind players, positive
@pitermach @superblindman Very much this. But also the fact that with the accessibility tools you can feel so much more than just speed. You can literally feel how the car responds. If it breaks out. And just how different they handle at slow and fast speeds. This is actually incredible. The absolutely incredible sound, haptics and accessibility make this feel so much better than anything I’ve played in a very, very , very long time. It is pretty much almost exactly what I thought it would be. Again obviously I have suggestions for the next one but those are mostly just improvements on what’s there. This system already works so well. I am very happy with this.
in reply to Talon

Accessibility of the new Forza for blind players, positive
@pitermach @superblindman And I think one of the best things is that you can say no, give me the bleeps and bloops but stop holding my hand. I got this. And the games like sure thing you got it boss. It doesn’t lock you into something. It feels really empowering and almost like the game respects you in a way. You don’t need to necessarily have an easier or simple experience. That moment you turn down, or even off, steering assist but everything else keeps working is something else. It’s a small thing but it’s so important!
in reply to Pitermach

Accessibility of the new Forza for blind players, positive
@pitermach Thank you. I love testimonials like this so, so much.
in reply to Pitermach

Accessibility of the new Forza for blind players, positive
@pitermach @superblindman Oh and I almost forgot. When you choose your character and the driving outfit you get friggin descriptions of them! I fully expected that part to be inaccessible and it wouldn’t even have bothered me if it was. But it wasn’t. And my first thought was how even the small details were thought of. So cool!
in reply to Talon

Accessibility of the new Forza for blind players, positive
@pitermach Heck to the yeah. Heheh. I am genuinely pleased that that little detail seems to be the majority of blind players' favorite things. :)
in reply to Talon

Accessibility of the new Forza for blind players, positive
@superblindman Oh yeah, that’s actually a very good point! For me another moment like that was when I went through the performance menu for the first time and was getting the tutorials, and while the narration was pointing things out in a more visual way we also got tutorials specific to narration, telling you how the list is laid out, the fact the the narration will automatically read all stats when you change parts and so on. That technically didn’t need to be there, but that’s another example of attention to detail
in reply to Pitermach

Accessibility of the new Forza for blind players, positive
@pitermach Yeah, I loved that we could do that for those.
in reply to Talon

Incoherent game accessibility ramblings, mostly about Forza
Firstly thank you. Secondly, I promise you, these people care. Here's a little inside baseball for you. We had, and still have, multiple people working on narration, and when they get a screen done, one single screen, like the popup you get when you autoupgrade forr instance, they ask me to approve it. What it narrates, the order in which it narrates it, all of that. That's just one example, but it's a promise that this is a team that wants to get it right. This isn't about business insentives, it is about fulfilling their promise to make the most accessible Forza game ever. Heck, that's why they brought in the big guns. *pats self on back*
in reply to superblindman

Incoherent game accessibility ramblings, mostly about Forza
@superblindman seriously, thanks to you and the team for this. This is incredible. And you're right. Just by how the game feels to play with accessibility settings on you can tell that the people working on that actually cared. The beginning was quite rough as you pretty much said it would be, but it's already getting a lot easier and it is so incredibly rewarding being able to turn off assist features one by one. Hell for most of my playtime I'm stuck in free play mode exploring different tracks and cars. I haven't even gotten to all the career stuff yet! I'm just having too much fun even just by myself. And again I think the thing that seems so small but is ultimately what really does it is that you don't have to make any gameplay compromises to get there.
in reply to Talon

Incoherent game accessibility ramblings, mostly about Forza
That's how I work. I bring accessibility, not easy mode. If a game is difficult, then it should be difficult. That said, we did want onboarding to be more than it is. My hope is that we get to do that going forward so we can bring in even more new players, but if so that's a future goal, not a next couple patches kind of goal. :)
in reply to superblindman

Incoherent game accessibility ramblings, mostly about Forza
@superblindman definitely. And I mean I could think of some other features that I'd very much like to have. Speedometer for example, or some audio cues you can trigger that show you your cars orientation vs. the road, maybe a noise that tells you when you're spinning out or your car loses control, you know, small things like that. But all of the things I'd probably want to have added would fit on top of the system that's there already. There's nothing that actually feels broken to me or out of place. So if we get more incremental improvements for the next Forza releases like we have then I'm beyond excited already and this one barely came out!
in reply to Talon

Incoherent game accessibility ramblings, mostly about Forza
Hahaha, next Forza releases he says. :) You know, I am staying on with the FOrza team. This Forza release is intended to be supported for quite a while. I don't think you'll be waiting as long as you expect. Stoll, to answer a couple of these, you do have the wrong way queue to let you know you're facing the wrong direction, and I have to say it's pretty easy to tell when you spin out since it causes steering guide to go categorically insane for a few seconds. It's not a bug when you spin out, because your orientation keeps changing. Haha.
in reply to superblindman

Incoherent game accessibility ramblings, mostly about Forza
@superblindman actually, I think the thing that right now annoys me the most is that some of the screen reader announcements and the turn announcements seem to cue up, which means that if I'm going really fast and reach a turn before the screen reader is done telling me my lap time, it just straight up won't tell me what the turn is coming up. Also when you enter into a race and you're mid-turn, you have no idea what's up until you're out of it. But I assume you're already aware of those two haha
in reply to Talon

Incoherent game accessibility ramblings, mostly about Forza
Yeah, so the queueing up is intentional. There's a very complex queueing and prioritization system connected to that. It is a way of ensuring you get all information you want without anything stepping on anything else. I understand the issue it creates especially on subsequent laps, but I still feel the system is justified overall, as just like the sighted, the hope is that you would begin to learn the track anyway, and would thus already be aware of the upcoming turn as you finished a lap. The issue with turns not being called out at the start of races, though, that's something I do intend to find a solution for. Not a fan of that one. Haha.
in reply to superblindman

Incoherent game accessibility ramblings, mostly about Forza
@superblindman I figured there was a priority system there. Sure you should learn the track but sighted people will have a reminder of the track visually as they drive it. So having a choice of giving the turns priority feels fair to me. But it’s a nitpick really.
in reply to Talon

Incoherent game accessibility ramblings, mostly about Forza
Yeah, the idea of allowing for some user control over the priority system has been brought up. I'm not sure how possible it'll be, but I'll look into it.
in reply to Talon

Incoherent game accessibility ramblings, mostly about Forza
@superblindman But it does prioritize turn announcements. No not interrupting messages, but most (including me) wouldn't want that. It will anounce a turn before any other message though after that one is complete, because it came in before look-ahead saw the turn. Things are happening so fast, you've got to have some sort of compromise and I think you have done an excellent job with this part, Brandon.
in reply to Talon

Incoherent game accessibility ramblings, mostly about Forza
@superblindman like you can individually enable and disable these things. At no point does it say hey, you probably can't do this, so we'll just lock these assist features on if you use this other one. We can choose what we want. It doesn't even question you about it.
in reply to Talon

Incoherent game accessibility ramblings, mostly about Forza
Yeah, the team and I talked a ton about this. Full customizability was always a key for us. Even in multiplayer. I have said before that we don't feel the system is optimized for multiplayer, because we need to do some work on traffic awareness, and I still think that, but we sure as heck don't lock you out of MP if you want to play it. We tell you to jump in, and enjoy if you want to give yourself that challenge. And even I am defying my own expectations, having placed 9th in an MP race against random sighted people. I mean it's not podium, but I think it's pretty freakin sick. Haha.
in reply to Talon

Incoherent game accessibility ramblings, mostly about Forza
I am still crashing my car all over the place! Keep getting 24th place in career mode, don't feel confident enough to go online until I can at least get 3rd. It is super fun but I feel like I need to watch a frigging guide on steering or something.
in reply to Drew Mochak

Incoherent game accessibility ramblings, mostly about Forza
@objectinspace I think I'm getting the hang of it slowly so I can probably do some videos about it. But probably one of the key bits of advice is that for the most part, you want to do very small and gradual inputs when it comes to turning. It's very easy to spin out because your engine is fully hard panned to the right and you think oh, if it's all the way on the right, I must fully slam the stick to the right. That's not actually how it works, and at faster speeds this will pretty much always lead to you running into something. The same goes for breaking and stepping on the gas. The idea is to have steady but smooth inputs rather than many hard ones.
in reply to Talon

Incoherent game accessibility ramblings, mostly about Forza
Yes this is my problem. I sort of know that in my mind, but when my slight movements are not sufficient to complete the turn, I find myself reverting to more drastic actions because I expect that to work, and it totally doesn't. If I do slow down and coast into a gentle turn but I am still panned hard left/right, how should I make the turn wider? Tap on the break and try another light turn?
in reply to Drew Mochak

Incoherent game accessibility ramblings, mostly about Forza
@objectinspace basically, just slightly push the stick in further. Vary how far you push the stick to the side with the turn. If it starts going towards the center, come off the stick a little bit, but for as long as the turn is actually going, ideally you'd be on the stick the entire time a little bit. Or at least that's what works well for me.
in reply to Talon

Incoherent game accessibility ramblings, mostly about Forza
Oh man. I can't get the hang of steering, so I use assisted. But I still have an absolute blast with it.
in reply to David K

Incoherent game accessibility ramblings, mostly about Forza
@Blobsta It’s not easy. I’ve been playing most of yesterday and pretty much all of today and I’m only now slowly getting the hang of it. But it is so so much fun. And of course it varies a lot by car.
in reply to Talon

Incoherent game accessibility ramblings, mostly about Forza
Oh absolutely. I love it so much. I've been waiting so long for an accessible racing game.
Unknown parent

Pitermach
Accessibility of the new Forza for blind players, positive
@PatrickK @superblindman No just your position
Unknown parent

GreenSkyOverMe (Monika)
Incoherent game accessibility ramblings, mostly about Forza
The video is fine!
And your driving is great. Looks like you’re having fun.
Unknown parent

Pitermach
Accessibility of the new Forza for blind players, positive
@PatrickK @superblindman After you pause, press y to bring up the driver list, then you have to find yourself.
Unknown parent

Talon
Forza rambles, negative
Got Forza on Steam after playing through XBox. After buying on Steam though my premium content is unavailable on both platforms. Yay... Ugh.
in reply to Talon

Forza rambles, negative
When I try to repurchase the DLC, which I shouldn't need to do because I have premium, it tells me I already own this DLC. This happens both through XBox and Steam. This is stupid.
in reply to Talon

Forza rambles, negative
Did their whole DLC troubleshooting stuff, reinstalled, nothing. So opened a ticket. Don't buy Forza on Steam if you're alreadyp laying on XBox. It'll probably mess up your stuff.
in reply to Talon

Forza rambles, negative
It is literally linked to the same XBox account. How the fuck can this go wrong? This is actually quite annoying. I can't continue because the cars I was using are now locked. Fantastic.
in reply to Talon

Forza rambles, negative
Damn that was meant to be a reply to the post below that one in my feed. bloody voiceOver.
in reply to Talon

Forza rambles, negative
You didn't even need to since it has play anywhere support. I'm sorry you're going through this man. But yeah for the future, when you buy a game on XBox, you can play it on PC from the store, too.
in reply to David K

Forza rambles, negative
@Blobsta And with my luck this support ticket will now just sit there and it’ll be half broken forever.
in reply to Talon

Forza rambles, negative
Roar. Stupid freakin issues. I remember when I had to buy Killer Instinct on Xbox twice. I already had it on PC, but nope, the transition didn't work when switching.
in reply to Talon

Forza rambles, negative
OK so somehow the problem partially fixed itself but is also even more broken. Now I have duplicate cars. A lot of them. And some other cars still don't work. Confusing.
in reply to Talon

Forza rambles, negative
At least that just sounds like a bug that many people would encounter and so thus is hopefully fixed quickly.
in reply to Kara Goldfinch

Forza rambles, negative
@KaraLG84 Hehe that happens to me as well with Mona. So now I always double check
in reply to Talon

Forza rambles, negative
I think I need to triple check in this case. lol
Unknown parent

Talon
Forza rambles, negative
@Bryn @Blobsta seems to run at 30 fps on low. And no running Windows on it.
Unknown parent

Talon
Forza rambles, negative
@Bryn @Blobsta benchmark option in settings.