in reply to arcana

pleroma - Link to source

mangeurdenuage :gondola_head: 🌿

@arcana @nemesis @piggo @sun
I see.
>energy independence and availability.
That's hard to achieve and you have to combine several methods to do so.
For a home so far the most effective and economical accessible ones are compressed air via windmills, vacuum tube solar water heater that can make super heated steam, and methane from composting, the last one being the easiest.
@Piggo @arcana @Blurry Moon @nemesis
in reply to mangeurdenuage :gondola_head: 🌿

pleroma - Link to source

nemesis

@mangeurdenuage @arcana @piggo @sun yes solar PV is semiconductors and thats what makes them so cheap now, its the same improvements in semiconductor technology that are enabling moore's law. the EROEI of solar PV is fine, its higher than that of fracking for example

as for compressed air thats just an energy storage technique, the problem is that wind has fundamental economies of scale because you can keep making the turbine bigger and higher, its not a storage problem

@Piggo @arcana @Blurry Moon @mangeurdenuage :gondola_head: 🌿
in reply to nemesis

pleroma - Link to source

mangeurdenuage :gondola_head: 🌿

@nemesis @arcana @piggo @sun
>hats just an energy storage technique
:pepeStare:
power-technology.com/marketdat…
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compress…
And beside that you don't have to necessarily convert everything to electricity since pneumatics are a thing that would avoid the energy loss of conversion.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pneumati…

Kraftwerk Huntorf – Compressed Air Energy Storage System, Germany

The Kraftwerk Huntorf - Compressed Air Energy Storage System is a 321,000kW energy storage project located in Grose Hellmer 1E, Lower Saxony, Germany.
Carmen (Power Technology)
@Piggo @arcana @Blurry Moon @nemesis
in reply to mangeurdenuage :gondola_head: 🌿

pleroma - Link to source

nemesis

@mangeurdenuage @arcana @piggo @sun

> I said its just an energy storage technique, not an energy source

> you respond just by posting a link saying its just an energy storage technique, not an energy source

I dont get what your point is. compressed air has nothing to do with the impracticality of small scale wind energy because it is not an energy source, just an alternative to batteries. the problem with small scale wind is that turbines have economies of scale that makes them cost-ineffective below a few hundred kW

> pneumatics are a thing that would avoid the energy loss of conversion

sure but pneumatics are extremely specialized, whereas electricity can do basically anything. batteries already have very good roundtrip energy efficiency so there is no advantage for compressed air in terms of roundtrip energy efficiency, and a big disadvantage for anything that isnt simply delivering mechanical force

@Piggo @arcana @Blurry Moon @mangeurdenuage :gondola_head: 🌿
in reply to nemesis

pleroma - Link to source

mangeurdenuage :gondola_head: 🌿

@nemesis @arcana @piggo @sun
>because it is not an energy source
>I don't get what your point is.
Not quoting the fifth element but,
The wind: blows
Output of a compressed air container: blows
By your own logic wind isn't an energy source and the whole planet is just an energy container, which according to Nic Tesla is one.
My point is that I agree that small scale windmill aren't as efficient as larges ones but by compressing/storing it you mitigate those issues since you can have a consistent amount at a higher rate than what random small scale wind would provide.

>just an alternative to batteries
It's another type of battery with their own characteristics yes.

>but pneumatics are extremely specialized
You'd be surprised, it can run my vmc, water pumps, meaning also the pump in the dishwasher or washing machine, it can also turn the tumblr, too. Hell even in some industries there have been refrigeration powered by that. Anything that has mechanical motion.

>batteries already have very good roundtrip energy efficiency
Take into account the manufacturing process and wastes.

> and a big disadvantage for anything that isnt simply delivering mechanical force
So basically only electronics and resistances/ovens.

@Piggo @arcana @Blurry Moon @nemesis
in reply to mangeurdenuage :gondola_head: 🌿

pleroma - Link to source

nemesis

@mangeurdenuage @arcana @piggo @sun

> The wind: blows
> Output of a compressed air container: blows

🥴

the obvious difference here is that the wind is a natural resource you can access whereas compressed air is something you have to manufacture

natural gas is an energy source because you can mine it out of the ground. synthetic fuels are not because you have to create it, and creating it consumes more energy than it produces (obviously, else you'd have a perpetual motion machine

by this logic a charged battery is a viable energy source. it is not because you cant fish charged batteries from the sea, you have to charge them

> by compressing/storing it you mitigate those issues since you can have a consistent amount at a higher rate than what random small scale wind would provide

the only issue here that you are addressing is variability---one which batteries would also address. what I am talking about is economies of scale in the extraction of wind energy itself because of the advantage of height and because the size of the circle the blades trace grows faster than the cost of the blades does. your compressed air system is still ultimately a combination of an energy vector and an energy storage system, it is not affecting the economies of scale at the energy extraction point.

> Anything that has mechanical motion

mechanical motion is pretty powerful but it pales in comparison to electricity which can do practically everything. heating and electronics are the biggest energy uses of most people and neither is well-suited to something that only generates mechanical force

@Piggo @arcana @Blurry Moon @mangeurdenuage :gondola_head: 🌿
in reply to nemesis

pleroma - Link to source

feld

@nemesis @arcana @piggo @mangeurdenuage @sun

> the obvious difference here is that the wind is a natural resource you can access whereas compressed air is something you have to manufacture

compressing gas generates a shitload of heat too, you can cause some cool explosions if you do it too fast

cc @SlicerDicer

@Piggo @arcana @Blurry Moon @mangeurdenuage :gondola_head: 🌿 @I am Water @nemesis
in reply to mangeurdenuage :gondola_head: 🌿

pleroma - Link to source

nemesis

@mangeurdenuage @arcana @piggo @sun = 30+ years for solar PV, easily long enough, and =10+ years for batteries if you take care of them well, more of an issue but still enough to be pretty fine in practice

I dont think batteries are the best option for large scale energy storage but for that you are back to things like pumped hydro that have big economies of scale

@Piggo @arcana @Blurry Moon @mangeurdenuage :gondola_head: 🌿
in reply to mangeurdenuage :gondola_head: 🌿

pleroma - Link to source

feld

@mangeurdenuage @arcana @nemesis @piggo @sun

> Good if they exist. I've never seen these in my life.
> All the people who got solar installed in the past 20 year here are either dead or only producing half of what they used too.

30+ years being observed in the field with only 0.5% loss per year

"Overall, the degradation rates found in this work are within the values observed in the past (from ~1979 to ~2014 module technologies) for more expensive (by up to 85%) conventional PV technologies. Therefore, although the costs declined sharply in the last decade, module degradation rates do not seem to be affected, at least for the sample investigated in this work. This is a very encouraging result, but more opportunities exist to reduce Rd to levels that enable longer PV module lifetimes. Finally, with respect to module warranties, the analysis so far showed that 26.1% of the systems are exceeding the warranty limits, whereas 56.5% of the systems demonstrated the potential of achieving lifetimes beyond 30 years assuming that Rd trends are stabilized."

onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10…

@Piggo @arcana @Blurry Moon @mangeurdenuage :gondola_head: 🌿 @nemesis
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