That's an interesting metaphor and it raises so many questions:
1. Wouldn't it have been smarter to torque them correctly from the start ?
2. How does one even determine the correct torque for any one bolt ?
3. When somebody starts a FOSS project today, where do they acquire a torque-wrench ?
And no, I'm not teasing you (this time 🙂 ) those are some of the questions I tried to find answers to with #varnishcache's "dial it to 11" code quality rule.
@bsdphk most open source projects I think start small and "easy", getting them all done right and properly tight from the beginning without even knowing if the project flies might not be the best priority. I think very few projects do that.
@bsdphk For me, open sourcing started with „here is what I did over the weekend, do what you want with it“. Now we have „civilization will end on several planets if you screw this up“ foss projects.
@icing @bsdphk in the curl project, pretty much every bolt was loose when we started and I looking around in the world, lots of projects still have a few that could use a little help...
@bsdphk I would argue that knowing how much torque to put in or even where the bolt have to go is... a process that can only be done after already having built the project, multiple times.
There is a reason any big engineering project (yes even road and bridges) build a lot of simulations and prototypes and even to scale models.
In software, we have a chance that we can *change the product itself* once it is running for no more cost. As an engineer in any other field, I would kill for that ability, as it would makes the iterative process of designing far faster and efficient.
Said otherwise... doing it the way we do in software is more advanced and "good" engineering than doing it "in the real world".
This is ofc only one lens to look at it, but it does have some support. It is just one map to look at things, maps are not the territory.
@Di4na It is now 50 years since Frederick P. Brooks wrote a book where he told everybody in IT to always build a prototype and to always throw it away...
Poul-Henning Kamp
in reply to daniel:// stenberg:// • • •That's an interesting metaphor and it raises so many questions:
1. Wouldn't it have been smarter to torque them correctly from the start ?
2. How does one even determine the correct torque for any one bolt ?
3. When somebody starts a FOSS project today, where do they acquire a torque-wrench ?
And no, I'm not teasing you (this time 🙂 ) those are some of the questions I tried to find answers to with #varnishcache's "dial it to 11" code quality rule.
daniel:// stenberg://
in reply to Poul-Henning Kamp • • •Stefan Eissing
in reply to daniel:// stenberg:// • • •@bsdphk For me, open sourcing started with „here is what I did over the weekend, do what you want with it“. Now we have „civilization will end on several planets if you screw this up“ foss projects.
This is no way to run a civilization.
daniel:// stenberg://
in reply to Stefan Eissing • • •Thomas Depierre
in reply to daniel:// stenberg:// • • •@bsdphk I would argue that knowing how much torque to put in or even where the bolt have to go is... a process that can only be done after already having built the project, multiple times.
There is a reason any big engineering project (yes even road and bridges) build a lot of simulations and prototypes and even to scale models.
In software, we have a chance that we can *change the product itself* once it is running for no more cost. As an engineer in any other field, I would kill for that ability, as it would makes the iterative process of designing far faster and efficient.
Said otherwise... doing it the way we do in software is more advanced and "good" engineering than doing it "in the real world".
This is ofc only one lens to look at it, but it does have some support. It is just one map to look at things, maps are not the territory.
Poul-Henning Kamp
in reply to Thomas Depierre • • •@Di4na
It is now 50 years since Frederick P. Brooks wrote a book where he told everybody in IT to always build a prototype and to always throw it away...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Myth…
book on software engineering and project management by Fred Brooks
Contributors to Wikimedia projects (Wikimedia Foundation, Inc.)daniel:// stenberg://
in reply to Poul-Henning Kamp • • •Daniel Barlow
in reply to daniel:// stenberg:// • • •daniel:// stenberg://
in reply to Daniel Barlow • • •Poul-Henning Kamp
in reply to daniel:// stenberg:// • • •@Di4na
I think it is very sound advice, but obviously not stand alone: The chapter on Second Systems Syndrome is equally important.
Have you ever studied the rsync source base?
I'm still not seeing a "better/more popular project" anywhere ?
daniel:// stenberg://
in reply to Poul-Henning Kamp • • •daniel:// stenberg://
in reply to Poul-Henning Kamp • • •