As a community, we often ask ourselves how to attract more users to #XMPP. Yet the real tragedy is that people would rather build something entirely new (loosely based on email or #ActivityPub) than consider XMPP. Need end-to-end encryption by default? If compatibility with existing XMPP clients is a secondary concern, you can implement it in your own solution while still benefiting from our two decades of experience in instant messaging.
FediVerseExplorer likes this.
Wolf480pl
in reply to Daniel Gultsch • • •I'm guessing there are complex problems in IM space that they don't realize they'll have to solve from scratch, which XMPP already solved for them.
What are these problems?
Daniel Gultsch
in reply to Wolf480pl • • •@wolf480pl yes I think that is a huge part of the problem. It is very easy to completely underestimate the complexity of Instant Messaging. Sending a message from A to B seems like something every software developer can write before lunch and people don’t see how it can and will rapidly escalate from there.
But I don’t know how do communicate that to other people.
Wolf480pl
in reply to Daniel Gultsch • • •marius
in reply to Daniel Gultsch • • •Daniel Gultsch
in reply to Daniel Gultsch • • •I consider this a failure on our part but I don’t really know what to do about it. Most arguments against #XMPP don’t hold if you’re building from scratch anyway:
• #Conversations_im looks very outdated: OK, but you are developing your own clients anyway.
• XMPP doesn’t have an SDK: Neither does your #ActivityPub or email stack
• OMEMO is insecure and I would prefer #MLS: Yes, let’s work on that together and you’ll still benefit from XMPP’s 100+ solved IM problems.
Štěpán Škorpil reshared this.
Ilias
in reply to Daniel Gultsch • • •Wolf480pl
in reply to Daniel Gultsch • • •- "when I tried to use it 5 years ago, messages were getting lost"
David Wilson
in reply to Daniel Gultsch • • •Debacle
in reply to Daniel Gultsch • • •IMHO, the point of both Delta and the new ActivityPub based chat (does it have a name yet?) is prevalence, at least in a certain part of society.
I remember, that Delta proponents said, that "you can reach everyone, who has an email address."
Now it is: "You can reach everyone, who has a fediverse account."
In the end, it is not that easy, e.g. because email users might not have autocrypt in their client, and it will take a while until there is #MLS in e.g. #mastodonEl.
Johannes Brakensiek
in reply to Daniel Gultsch • • •The big plus of #DeltaChat is that the infrastructure is already there. Infrastructure is a big part of the problem. And obviously using mail for that is only for people born before 2000.
Second is branding: When people hear #XMPP they hear 20 years of failure of implementing robust solutions both server-side and client-side. People just don't know that after 20 years there now are server and client solutions really working.
Delta Chat (39c3)
in reply to Johannes Brakensiek • • •@lazarus #XMPP is still a thriving ecosystem with lots of good FOSS developers doing interesting things.
XMPP is also used under the hood in tons of products needing instant messaging even if they are not advertised as XMPP clients, or do not federate. But look at #Matrix, only 25% of matrix servers federate.
Anyway, all three share a strong focus on protocols, but there is a big difference: chatmail.at does not expose protocols to client developers, just a Rust SDK.
Chatmail
chatmail.atpixelschubsi
in reply to Delta Chat (39c3) • • •It's funny how the thing you came up with where DeltaChat is different, is that it presents itself a Rust SDK rather than a protocol to client developers.
@daniel literally wrote about this "I don't like existing SDKs" topic above.
What remains is that before you created the SDK on top of a protocol that wasn't XMPP, it didn't exist either. Had you created the SDK on top of XMPP, it would still use a better protocol for the job and you would still have the SDK you just promoted.
Tofiks
in reply to Delta Chat (39c3) • • •XMPP clients only partially can penetrate Imperial Firewall (Russia). Sometimes no message transfer, sometimes simple text messages can jump over Imperial Firewall. Audiomessages almost all need VPN ... Not very powerful system... Sorry. Its practical observed. I try communicate with russian dissidents.
amackif
in reply to Daniel Gultsch • • •not an expert here, but someone who despises matrix based on user experience.
It's not about the protocol itself. It's a bit about people hating dealing with xpath (me included). Json has one of the three: a value, an array or a dict.
If you want xmpp to be accepted, then you need to provide two things:
1. Sexy client, both web and mobile for user acceptance
2. Nice way to deal with payloads aka SDK for devs
Two more things: single binary deployment for server and e2e encrption
Richard Hector
in reply to Daniel Gultsch • • •famfo
in reply to Daniel Gultsch • • •* crypto with cross signing and proper device management, some clients also implement omemo 8 while the rest doesn't
* more aggressive compliance levels, some clients support for example rich replies, which are nice to have, and stickers which do not have a fallback as far as I know
* a better way to show clients on the xmpp.org website, I don't think that yhe average person will know about what core and IM is
Ulrich Popp
in reply to Daniel Gultsch • • •In XMPP: Which client? Does it have OMEMO? Which server? How to register?
Whatsapp: This app, Your number, give us all rights to fuck you up, okay, finished.
Telegram more or less the same
Signal also only one app.
More freedom means more possibilites means more complicated and more confusion for first time users.
Dawn Ahukanna
in reply to Daniel Gultsch • • •Q2. How do I use it? People using the tech (tool) don’t choose between OSI layer-7 application protocols, they choose tool that does a job/outcome they need done I.e. I want to send a “text message” to someone, whose contact details I have. I don’t want to be insulted or abused by strangers using or producers of tool.
Q3. SDK? No. Code something.
An Overview of XMPP | XMPP - The universal messaging standard
xmpp.orgDelta Chat (39c3)
Unknown parent • • •