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I have a lot of respect for #DeltaChat (@delta); By all accounts they provide a good looking client and a homogenize experience across platforms. Users absolutely don’t need to care about the underlying protocol!

However there is no way, shape or form in that IMAP+Submission is a more suitable stack for instant messaging than #XMPP.

#xmpp #deltachat @Delta Chat (39c3)

Peter Vágner reshared this.

in reply to Daniel Gultsch

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Matthias

Deltachat needs some kind of dumb protocol to exchange data. Currently it is imap, it may or may not be combined with other protocols in the future. It could be anything else. It can not be directly compared to xmpp as deltachat only needs imap to exchange data.

In other words, both are hard to compare because:
* in xmpp, the magic happens server-side.
* in deltachat, the magic happens client-side.

This entry was edited (18 hours ago)
in reply to Matthias

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Daniel Gultsch

@ulfi Two things:

• The dumb protocol to exchange data can still be standardized. The actual data (for example what does an Emoji reaction or a delivery receipt looks like) needs to be standardized as well. 'Client side feature' or not.
• How much data is stored on the server is just flavor. 10 years ago XMPP servers used to store a lot less data. A roster-less XMPP client is completely viable and would still be compatible with other XMPP clients.

@Matthias
in reply to ArcaneChat

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Daniel Gultsch

@arcanechat A good engineer can make everything work and end users don’t care either way.

However if we were to start from scratch and ignore the "everyone has an email address argument" which doesn’t really hold true anymore in times when 'Chat Relays" are the recommended transport and have a level headed debate about IMAP vs XMPP for instant messaging there is no way IMAP comes out on top.

@ArcaneChat
in reply to Daniel Gultsch

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ArcaneChat

> My question is rather: How can #XMPP market itself better to people who want to build instant messaging solutions.

my humble opinion: I would still pick #deltachat / chatmail core to build my client if I had to start from scratch today, with #xmpp I just have a protocol, with delta chat I don't actually need to use the #email protocol at all, only the core library that takes care of dealing with networking and #encryption while all I have to do is to create the UI

#xmpp #email #encryption #deltachat
in reply to ArcaneChat

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ArcaneChat

so if we could have such an "xmpp core" that would take care of the important stuff and encryption, then get it audited etc. then it will be much easier for people to use that to build their clients while knowing there is some level of security and common ground and compatibility between clients, I know some might say "having several implementations is better" but I think facts are talking by themselves, resources are scarce, it is better to unite forces
in reply to Daniel Gultsch

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Peter Vágner

@Daniel Gultsch I'm sorry to bring this up again as it's somewhat personal, but I feel there is a bit of downside when it comes to #XMPP adoption among #screenReader users. The issue is that #conversations is the only #accessible xmpp app I know off. Ideally we'd appreciate at least single accessible XMPP based messenger per platform what @ArcaneChat @Delta Chat (39c3) have already.
#accessible #xmpp #conversations #screenreader @Delta Chat (39c3) @Daniel Gultsch @ArcaneChat
in reply to Daniel Gultsch

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ArcaneChat

well it depends on the context, I am Cuban, that Delta Chat used email was the whole point I started using it and contributing, besides cheaper data plan for national email, you see down there in the 3rd world on an unstable 2g connection at 1kb/s #email, asynchronity and offline-first comes on top of #xmpp which together with #Telegram really struggles to even get connected, in a fast hyperconnected 1st world this might be less relevant until some emergency times or in isolated areas
#xmpp #email #telegram
This entry was edited (17 hours ago)
in reply to ArcaneChat

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mousetech

@arcanechat
Might be a bit offtopic, but wanna add: here in Ukraine, during full scale war, we have relatively cheap unlimitted internet for which you pay ≈7$ in outskirt of small city and around ≈5$ in city itself. First one is GPON connection with 500mb cap, which is available during regular and long power outages. Second is default twisted pair with 100mb cap, but users can swap for same GPON with same tariff if building connected to optical network of that exact provider, otherwise choose another one which is already connected. Mobile providers also works during outages in 4G, but they are a bit expensive as for me, same 7$ once per 4 weeks for good enough tariff (true unlimitted just don't exist).

And Ukrainians not only have good and cheap internet access, we have really high quality services in mostly whole private sector. And all of that with the worst quality of life in Europe. We really good people, I promise. Please, #StandWithUkraine. It worth every your as little you could imagine your effort is. Stay safe and do cool things!

#StandWithUkraine @ArcaneChat
in reply to Daniel Gultsch

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holga

fair points, dear Daniel! Thanks for the praise as well, as well as the warranted skepticism regarding IMAP. It's a strange protocol to use for instant messaging, and it's not the strong point of what delta apps are today, arguably. Then again, internet and tech evolve via "shoehorning" something into another thing because "we can", for good or bad reasons 😂 are you making it to 39c3 btw?
in reply to Radasbona

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Peter Vágner

@Radasbona I am not sure it's dismissed all together. @Delta Chat (39c3) #chatmail relays already support google / apple push messaging and adding @UnifiedPush support might be just matter of finding a motivated developer.
Still with imap idle in place the battery and network impact is minimal so it's not seen as very high priority thing. For example there is an email client called #fairEmail which does the same thing, keeping the imap idle connections open whenever it's able to and it's working fine. Within email app it's difficult if not impossible to add push messaging support unless you have control of the server side provider or you wish to trade your privacy.
#fairemail #chatmail @UnifiedPush @Delta Chat (39c3) @Radasbona
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ArcaneChat

@menel that sounds like what I was proposing, now you need the xmpp community to embrace such approach,

don't get me wrong I would still not pick xmpp because there groups are centralized/depending on the server, too much dependency on the servers, with delta chat I already have the easy to use core and no dependency on server and soon even multiple servers can be used at the same time, your account is portable accross servers, xmpp is far behind there

@daniel

@Daniel Gultsch @Menel :xmpp:
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