#39c3 .ending .. quite an enjoyable blast, and thanks to all the wonderful people just dropping by to say "thank you, it all works very nice for us"! 🥰 Certainly raised team spirits :)
This year around, apart from one #chatmail relay setup workshop we didn't do any registered events at congress. Pushing out releases, Illnesses and engagements in various other organizing prevented more public sessions. Next ones will be around #fosdem2026 where also several of us will be around. Cheers!
Quite a few of #deltachat #chatmail and #webxdc folks are already and will be around #39c3 -- on-site you can join a group chat (or send us a DM upfront) where we announce dynamically scheduled sessions. You'll find us mostly around Komona but also other places ... for more info:
PSA: Influenza is spreading heavily currently, and 30% of people are infectious without symptoms. Please maintain hygiene and at best test yourself before entering premises. Thanks!
@Radasbona I am not sure it's dismissed all together. @Delta Chat (39c3) #chatmail relays already support google / apple push messaging and adding @UnifiedPush support might be just matter of finding a motivated developer. Still with imap idle in place the battery and network impact is minimal so it's not seen as very high priority thing. For example there is an email client called #fairEmail which does the same thing, keeping the imap idle connections open whenever it's able to and it's working fine. Within email app it's difficult if not impossible to add push messaging support unless you have control of the server side provider or you wish to trade your privacy.
@david_chisnall being careful of claiming that something is "secure" is good advise/critique. Users are easily misled other ways. As to delivery receipts, it's unlikely there is a big problem with #chatmail clients (of which delta chat and arcanechat are two) because you can not cause a delivery receipt from a peer. But there are likely online-leakage issues with the invite protocols securejoin.readthedocs.io like github.com/chatmail/core/issue… that require work and independent audits.
SecureJoin has two types of tokens: invite tokens and auth tokens. Currently SecureJoin invite token can be used to silently probe device online status. Auth token when successfully used results in...
Another privacy vulnerability caused by the dependency on phone numbers.
In #ArcaneChat (and other #chatmail clients like #DeltaChat) you don't need a phone number (or any private data at all!) to register, so such attacks are simply impossible, keep your family safe, join arcanechat.me
We estimate there are ~4 times more relays than in the published list at chatmail.at/relays
Many relays are smaller ones, but that's fine. A 5 EUR per month VPS can go a long way (thousands or tens of thousands of monthly users). Thanks for the service to all the operators of which around 40 are in a loose group chat 💗
Chatmail provides FOSS infrastructure for interoperable, secure, speedy and reliable end-to-end encrypted messaging. Check out clients as Arcane Chat, Bots or Delta Chat today!
chatmail.at and webxdc.org are spearheading ever new and more fun ways to deny power to servers and platform billionaires.
Unlike classic email servers, #chatmail relays do not store user identities which solely live on end-user devices.There also is no encrypted value on the server like with Proton Mail or Signal. There are only relays, endless federating networks of relays to onboard safely :)
Chatmail provides FOSS infrastructure for interoperable, secure, speedy and reliable end-to-end encrypted messaging. Check out clients as Arcane Chat, Bots or Delta Chat today!
and besides that, setup is something you do only once, the real struggle comes next, I have never self-hosted matrix but see people complaining or even de-federating due to server burden, while I do host a #chatmail server with +8k users in a 5eur VPS using 1.2gb of ram and 19gb of disk, now try the same with #matrix
He provat tres programaris de #MissatgeriaInstantània, tant com administrador com usuari. El meu resum.
- #Matrix, servidor complexe d'instal·lar i configurar, molt lent federant sales. Menja força recursos de màquina.
Chatmail provides FOSS infrastructure for interoperable, secure, speedy and reliable end-to-end encrypted messaging. Check out clients as Arcane Chat, Bots or Delta Chat today!
Another nice surprise! A careful discussion and appreciation of our almost 8-year long running efforts, and its #deltachat and #chatmail artifacts. The "Signal contingency plan" comes complete with podcast, website and zine!
Attached: 1 image
Our chat with Mary & Fanny, two independent technologists, on contingency for "what if Signal were blocked in the US" and their suggestion: @delta
https://thefinalstrawradio.noblogs.
@sarae state actors could run #chatmail servers, and maybe that is happening today. But the server does not get private data, and can not break the end-to-end encryption, and so does not see any metadata like profile names, avatars, group memberships etc.
But the 1 billion people using TG are at risk because of its big central database that any state security service craves for. Moreover, several anonymization proxy-bot offerings were hacked in 2024, identifying millions of users and content.
#deltachat builds anonymization directly into the app and has pervasive end-to-end encryption. #chatmail relay operators can sleep well, knowing they have nothing. Ergo, E2EE is good for any operators sleep! :)
if you use #DeltaChat or #ArcaneChat, I recommend you to use them with #chatmail accounts, which provide faster speed and prevent spammers/scammers from sending emails to your kids and other family members, only other family members will be able to get in contact with them via QR scan or invite link
#chatmail does secure email federation that works. Using lean "relay" servers that enforce metadata-minimized end-to-end encryption.
There is a new little tool that checks whether two relays are interacting well for messaging, and how fast. You need a terminal window and be able to execute:
pip install cmping
you can then run for example:
cmping mailchat.pl nine.testrun.org
to perform a "ping" test for e2ee-messaging. Also see chatmail.at/relays
Chatmail provides FOSS infrastructure for interoperable, secure, speedy and reliable end-to-end encrypted messaging. Check out clients as Arcane Chat, Bots or Delta Chat today!
@arale_xan This is not about a full technical comparison of security aspects. Our post was more about UX goals here in this thread. That being said, email metadata in #chatmail messaging is pretty minimal, and we are working on reducing it further: delta.chat/en/help#message-met…
What is Delta Chat? Delta Chat is a reliable, decentralized and secure messaging app, available for mobile and desktop platforms. Delta Chat feels like Whatsapp or Telegram but you can also use and...
The #chatmail #rust core is the base infrastructure library used by all apps and bots. It contains all networking, encryption, email processing and implements all the relevant IETF email standards. It's a single central development place with which the whole ecosystem of clients and bots can upgrade consistently.
We are constantly trying to remove code, and to cleanup things. That's a must to keep a 8-year long evolved code base agile and adaptable. Key insight: The best code is no code ;)
that single dev was actually supported by mainline #chatmail relay developers along the way, and besides, the Go-efforts (there are two) are not production ready yet.
Any data that is collected on servers will eventually leak or be abused otherwise.
By design, no one can enumerate #deltachat profiles which are private and not published on any server. Conversely, #chatmail relays do not see or collect private data or metadata.
But wait, there is more :)
We are currently evolving end-to-end security protocols and UX to **survive an attacker fully taking over a server**. The attacker shall not even be able to message users, let alone impersonate anyone.
While #cloudflare US-east1 is busy fixing a good part of the Internet, parts of Matrix/Element, X etc down, good old decentralized #chatmail continues unimpeded and without degradation :)
In other news, there is a new #freebsd community maintained ❤️ #deltachat desktop install:
#chatmail might be a new way to deliver email but it's not a new way to deliver mail :)
"Poste restante" or "general delivery" or "waiting mail" is a mode where one can send a message to a name or, in some countries, pseudonym, @ a post office address and then someone else can come and get it, showing their name or pseudonym (passphrase). en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poste_re…
Curious, which of you know/have used the poste restante mode of delivering postal mail at one point in your life?
Denmark and other EU governments still pursue #chatcontrol.
They still want to permanently legalize client-side scanning but postponed making it mandatory.
They also want to increase age-verification controls which risk to ruin what little is left of privacy in current digital spaces, taken hostage already by US corps.
Ourselves? We double down on providing the most private, reliable and fun messaging experience, with a growing federating #chatmail relay network across the globe.
#deltachat is a private messaging app. It'd be easy enough to offer various public groups to boost onboarding, and let everyone play. But one would land in a large group that isn't very private, with lots of needs for moderation tooling, troll handling and other social-media issues. Not our current cup of tea.
We are grateful for the many folks here onboarding their families, projects or friends, founding special-interest chats, setting up #chatmail relays etc. This is wonderful, cheers!
i love the #chatmail tag as it makes the technology immediately comfortable for the less tech savvy. But a little searching shows that ChatMail is a registered trademark of Myntex, Inc (whoever that is?). Are these related? Is there hope for us to be able to use the chatmail name/tag/label?
Many experts caught up in the past crypto/decentralization discourse fail to recognize one key innovation area of #deltachat and #chatmail efforts:
A user interface (UI) and experience (UX) that mimicks and closely resembles Whatsapp and Telegram ... who both have a central cleartext database of identities, social graphs and, in the case of Telegram, also messages and media, of billions of users!
We prefer to ground every discussion in UX/UI terms and measure security by outcomes for users.
@vort3 you have a point and it's kind of funny that even though #chatmail uses the email system, one can't just give out an email address. The challenge is to establish automatic end-to-end encryption while maintaining identity privacy (in Delta Chat we want chat profiles to be fully private and decentralized so can't just do some central registry). There are some ideas on how to bring back the ease of telling your address and people contacting you. Just more involved than it sounds :)
@lexinova @upofadown FWIW there are some non-electron clients chatmail.at/clients and an upcoming post about an experimental Tauri one. The current #deltachat desktop electron-based client tries to both size-bloat/ram wise do better, and also e.g. bars the frontend rendering process from doing any Internet connections which are purely done via the Rust core library, for all #chatmail clients.
Chatmail provides FOSS infrastructure for interoperable, secure, speedy and reliable end-to-end encrypted messaging. Check out clients as Arcane Chat, Bots or Delta Chat today!
we hear you but it's the truth: by onboarding to #deltachat today you are diving into an experimental testrun of "the future of email" , also known as #chatmailchatmail.at
Finally we, as app distributors, want to fully disentangle from any "default" server. Testrun will become history :)
Chatmail provides FOSS infrastructure for interoperable, secure, speedy and reliable end-to-end encrypted messaging. Check out clients as Arcane Chat, Bots or Delta Chat today!
1) there are bridges ("matterdelta") which provide interop with Matrix, XMPP, Telegrram, ssh and anything that Matterbridge provides. It doesn't preserve end-to-end encryption and so bridging bot choice is tricky.
2) There are growing efforts around 3rd party #chatmail clients chatmail.at/clients. Interoperability is "free" between all chatmail clients (#deltachat being the prominent one). Unlike #Signal we welcome third parties to the party :)
Chatmail provides FOSS infrastructure for interoperable, secure, speedy and reliable end-to-end encrypted messaging. Check out clients as Arcane Chat, Bots or Delta Chat today!
there is also a tauri version, we will publish the blogpost about that somewhere in the future. github.com/deltachat/deltachat… Also this browser version is not standalone, it still requires one server instance per user that runs deltachat/chatmail core. Ideally it would be just a PWA, but for that #chatmail core needs to be compiled to, and work in wasm: support.delta.chat/t/what-woul…
most chatmail relays have higher quotas (usually 200MB or more). #Chatmail relays remove messages unconditionally so the quota is not comparable with classic email servers which tend to keep messages forever. The "100MB" is an early default and it should be increased to better match current standard practises.
@tomli what does IP address hiding have to do with the topic of the post? :) Anyway, Cloudfare probably sees all signal group members by the access pattern to in-chat media, including their IP address. Each #chatmail relay only sees IP addresses of its users but not of users of other relays.
Signal's president claimed it takes billions to replicate the availability and reliability of "hyperscalers" (AWS/Google/Microsoft/Cloudfare) that Signal uses.
