we hear you but it's the truth: by onboarding to #deltachat today you are diving into an experimental testrun of "the future of email" , also known as #chatmail chatmail.at

Finally we, as app distributors, want to fully disentangle from any "default" server. Testrun will become history :)

Sensitive content Reveal/hide

@lexinova Message retention more or less negates the benefit of forward secrecy. If an attacker gets your secret key information they for sure are going to get your old messages. Since most people want to keep their old messages around forward secrecy is not very important for encrypted messaging.

articles.59.ca/doku.php?id=pgp… (my article)

@lexinova you don't need perfect forward secrecy... first of all, it is useless if you don't use short-term disappearing messages, second, it is useful if you can have only a single profile like on Signal, where you mix sending memes to your mom with planing a government boicot in the same account, any serious activist will use a dedicated profile they can just throw away, together with all its suspicious chats, this is super easy to do in Delta Chat, impossible with Signal

@delta

@adbenitez It's not because YOU want chat history that everyone want it.

Me and my familly all use 1 week auto deletion.

if we need something we save it ....

@lexinova glad you have such a privacy conscious family, most people don't want to put the efforts of saving every family photo or important message in Saved Messages, and then you are not protecting those with PFS anyways

also, for PFS to work your enemy needs to control or have access to the server you use, which is easier with a centralized server but not so much with decentralized platforms like Delta Chat,

can you point out when PFS saved anyone? never

@adbenitez never say never, and again because you don't need it does not mean it's not good.

Also you put a little too much trust on the operator of your decentralized server of the one that relay it.

operator can go rogue, or the server can be seized and run (many federal agency trough the world take over and run the server to catch as much as possible).

But what do i know i'm only a CISO after all

@lexinova I didn't say it is not good to have, I say it is not a reason for you to upfront reject any solution if it doesn't have the typical fusswords out of context

about the operator of the relay I use, yes, I trust him, it is MYSELF, I don't need to trust a 3rd party...

if I would need to do some dangerous business I would create a new account which takes 3 taps and use that then easily delete it with all its chats and contacts, you never replied to this point of using multi-account, well

@adbenitez No self deleting message and PFS, also protect from the crap of a phone many contact have by making sure it's deleted after a time, and not brokable later on with PFS, so your example fail both thing i'm protected from with autodeleted message + PFS

But i will stop to answer as you don't understand that your threat model cannot work on everyone

@adbenitez you can resume it in one sentence :

"if it does not break it secure it", so if it does not hinder the convenience of normal people and do not prevent the system to work it must be added.

and for why the answer is simple, i was born and lived in the russian federation before comming to EU freedom so security and privacy is non negociable for me.

even if you had a state level attacker coming after you they're more likely to compromise the software supply chain and backdoor your virtual keyboard or be able to screenshot and exfiltrate without you knowing. Then they don't need your key anyway because capturing the traffic is so much harder

With delta, your client to server is TLS 1.3 with PFS anyway so they gotta break that first

@feld @adbenitez was not thinking of state attack, just that many unknown are generated trough email relay

that mean (for example) if half the user use relay that run on AWS, amazon can theorically shadow copy them crack them, no pfs = everything is cooked

again it's a threat i took out of my pocket and i'm pretty sure pfs also protect other kind of attack i didn't think off.

@feld @adbenitez or in a week if in 2 day we find a flaw or bug in how keepass handle something, that made it easy to guess

Never think your encryption is flawless or you might be cooked if some flaw like this appear.

if some flaw like that appears, it's not me that's cooked -- it's the entire internet, corporations, governments...

encryption HAS to withstand being in the hands of an adversary. Otherwise what good is full disk encryption? If they have their hands on your disk and you really think that it could get cracked in a week or a year, why waste your time? It would be better to just take extreme caution to physically protect access to it.

I trust the math. And I also don't have any faith at all in quantum CPUs. Until I can order one and it does EXACTLY what they claim it can do, it's a fantasy. I say this all the time: the quantum CPU is the new cold fusion.

@feld @adbenitez not really already happened in the past, never blindly trust encryption (even more if only one is done), and never trust the network.

it's security 101