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One of the greatest harms we do to our blind children is not allowing them to fail, not allowing them to get lost, not allowing them to get hurt. I'm talking within reason here, but if you run to the rescue every time your blind kid spills grape jelly or trips over a toy, or gets lost while coming back from the bathroom at Aunt Bessie's house you are simply building an adult who has never learned to problem solve, who has never built resilience or grit into their character. And thats how you end up with 35 year old blind people who are afraid to go out without a sighted person, who can't maintain basic levels of cleanliness in their homes, who can't make a cheese toasty. Who are afraid of everything from cross walks to skillets. And as a professional it makes me furious to see this enabling behavior in children because I know whats coming in their adulthood, but when I try and speak up, or when I won't "rescue" the kid in my class suddenly I"m the bad guy. I frequently hear things like "They aren't me." I'm very well aware they aren't me. But I'm also aware of whats waiting for them out in the big bad world. I want them to feel as comfortable as they can in it, and that includes being comfortable getting lost, or failing, or making a mess because they know they have the tools to solve those problems.

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in reply to miki
@miki Yes that! I'm currently having this discussion with a student. They refuse to use their cane and finally I was like, so do you ever plan on going on dates? If so, how much do you think people want to be around someone who can't even take themselves to the bathroom? That got them to pay attention.
in reply to The Witchy Bitches
TBH, if I was on a date in a place I didn't know, I don't think a cane would help me much. At least over here, even sighted people have a problem finding bathrooms sometimes, and they have to flag somebody wearing a staff uniform to help.
in reply to miki
@miki Sorry I should have clarified we were talking about a date at the school where this kid goes. This kid has been at this school for 2 years but because they always go sighted guide they don't know where things are... like bathrooms.
in reply to The Witchy Bitches

Oh, that makes sense. Though dates at a school seem kind of strange to me.

I was like that in primary school, I also needed to carry a brailler so there was no extra hand for a cane. I got better in high school as I was allowed to use a laptop and ebooks, which made things much easier.

in reply to The Witchy Bitches
Aah, those. I never went to them and entirely forgot they existed, partially because of transportation challenges, partially because of the fact I hate loud music, me being on the autism spectrum isn't out of the question, partially because "blind and has no friends to go with", see autism spectrum and transport difficultiesagain.
in reply to The Witchy Bitches
I fortunately figured this stuff out way before I had any peers that could pressure me into it, again, no local friends and transportation difficulties. I have my own place in a big city now, and I even know people who go regularly, so I probably could go if I wanted to, but I know better.
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It is impossible to overstate the contribution Glen Gordon has made to the #accessibility industry. More important even than that, his meticulous attention to detail and his understanding that something must be more than accessible, it must be efficient, has helped countless people to be productive at work, at school, and just when living life.
Glen devised many concepts that are now just thought of as the way things are done in a graphical user interface.
On top of all that, he is one of the nicest, most humble people I’ve ever met and worked with. I have heard from several young people following the National Federation of the Blind’s National Convention, at which we honored Glen with the prestigious Kenneth Jernigan award and he offered some wise advice, that Glen inspired them.
You are a legend, Glen. And although the words seem ridiculously inadequate, all I can say in conclusion is, thank you so much for all you have done.
I am pasting Glen’s LinkedIn post for those who are not over there.
Glen Gordon, Screen reading for the blind software pioneer, 24 minutes ago • Visible to anyone on or off LinkedIn, 1st
Today is a very sad day for me, since after nearly 32 years, it’s the first day that I’m no longer working on the JAWS screen reader.
I’ve voluntarily resigned my position at Freedom Scientific/Vispero because I found myself unable to continue working for a company that’s changing in ways that are moving away from my personal values.
As recently as the 2025 NFB convention, I was thinking that I’d be working on JAWS far into the future. Much to my surprise, a recent influx of new Executive leaders and customer facing product related changes convinced me that it was time to leave.
I leave behind a group of smart and passionate colleagues, and products which are the best in class. It’s been a great journey, and I thank all of you who have been users of Freedom Scientific software for some or all that time.
Yes, I’m retiring, in the sense that I’m of retirement age and not actively seeking another job. But I’m resigning in the sense that I felt I needed to take a principled stand.
I will continue doing my part to improve the state of accessibility. What that will look like will evolve over time.
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So Google is building a massive AI data centre on Christmas Island, a tiny remote Australian territory with 1,692 people, and it’s exactly the kind of dystopian tech imperialism you’d expect.
They’re militarising a small island community in the name of cloud computing, partnering with the Australian Defence Department to monitor Chinese submarines and enable AI powered warfare systems. The island becomes a pawn in great power conflicts while Google extracts strategic value.
Meanwhile, locals are promised vague economic benefits while their homeland gets turned into a surveillance node with subsea cables linking to US Marine bases. Classic extractive colonialism dressed up as innovation.
The energy demands alone, powered by a local mining company, naturally, are staggering. Big Tech continues doubling our electricity costs for AI toys while communities bear the burden.
Christmas Island is known for red crab migrations, not military infrastructure. But when you’re a trillion dollar corporation, even the most remote ecosystems are just real estate for your empire.

#googleisevil #bigtech #militarisation #digitalcolonialism #aiethics #christmasisland #defendtheislands #environment #aibubble

reuters.com/world/asia-pacific…

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SWAM plugins are really wonderful. I was messing with their bass clarinet and had to play this old number, just for fun.
These aren't samples, this is physically modeled. Super clever stuff.

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Have you ever booted a zip archive? I was doing my regular computing shenanigans, and then it dawned on me that a floppy image can be a valid ZIP archive. That's because the boot sector and the FAT table are at the beginning of the file, and the ZIP file header is at the end of it. The trick was used in the past for something called "rarjpeg" (a JPEG image that is a valid RAR file).

I needed a test fast, so I took @nanochess's bootBASIC, and created a file that has the bootsector at the beginning, then 701709 bytes of padding, and then 25159 bytes of ZIP file with the bootBASIC sources.

It can be unzipped by your favourite archiver, or booted in your favourite emulator ( qemu-system-i386 -fda bootableBASIC.zip)

The file: drive.google.com/file/d/1JQgBS…

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To those who use TWBlue, you will now be able to edit posts whenever the next version releases. github.com/MCV-Software/TWBlue…

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✨ Your new public_html folder is here, upload html and ~your-site is ready

~ public.monster 🐙

I'm pretty sure I'll regret making this, but upload your public monstrosity and let's see how it goes. Some fun may be had. I'll watch carefully for now 🕵️

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I just read that FFMPEG supports lufs normalization. That with combination with luveler and MrsWatson allows for nice automatic normalization of recordings. I can use Reaper and tweak everithing, but there are people who just need to get their recordings to relative consistent levels.Luveler teragonaudio/MrsWatson: A command-line VST plugin host

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Lately I've been seeing a lot of lacking alt text on audio posts on mastodon. Guys, audio alt text is just as important as image alt text. Just as we preach at people posting images that "a diagram" or "a funny meme" isn't helpful, "a piece of music" or "strange noises" aren't helpful audio alt texts. Describe the audio, not just the basic outline of what it is. We can't yell at image posters to do something we're not even doing ourselves. Just as image alt texts help more than blind people, audio alt texts help more than deaf people. Please try.

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So on a fresh Windows 11 install, I would need to now run at least 4 GitHub scripts just to make it behave and tamed down to the process plus ram usage of Windows 10. Unbelievable. I'm going to provide links here, you use these at your own risk. I'm also favoriting this post for myself so this is a bit for me, too.
All of these require that Defender's "realtime protection" and possibly "tampor protection" stay off. Defender is very yelly.

First thing I do: github.com/ShadowWhisperer/Rem…
This removes Microsoft Edge, and I use the WebView remover. If you use JAWS, this one might not be for you, since I believe JAWS relies on the webView.
2. Spicy: Remove defender. Not for everyone, but if you have a 3rd-party scanner and AV you use that's light, or just want to manually scan files and do daily quick scans with a tool of your choice, it's good. Using WSL will reinstall the hypervisor bits. It does a lot, so be cautious.
github.com/ionuttbara/windows-…
3. New to the list: github.com/zoicware/RemoveWind… - for getting rid of all AI features. Again, large script, read and consult carefully.
4. My own quick debloat Gist for LTSC: gist.github.com/tgeczy/2d847e2…
This does a lot more plumming removal, and disables your search box, so don't be surprised.
5. For search box: Open Menu: github.com/Open-Shell/Open-She… - works really well.
Bonus: github.com/Raphire/Win11Debloa…

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in reply to Amir has moved
@amir oh yeah, 32 GB is very respectible even now, I have 2 laptops here on Win11 with that amount. I think under 32, like 16, can also work because the OS scales back RAM usage a bit, by about 500-600 MB or more, so less aggressive caching policies on the 8 or 16 GB systems help mitigate anything you'd feel. Windows works in misterious ways. Ah wait...
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I’m currently working on an interesting project. Last year, I met a former homeless man named Peter. He lost all his money to gambling. On the streets, he sold a street magazine, and later he started writing his own book. Today, most of his income comes from selling that book.
He wanted to create an audiobook. Since the budget was small, we did it like this: I gave him a Zoom H1N recorder. He locked himself in a relatively quiet room and gradually recorded the entire book. He sent me the raw material, which I ran through @Auphonic to remove background noise and room echo and to balance the loudness levels.
Now I just need to remove the mistakes and create the music background. It won’t be full studio quality — but honestly, I’ve heard “studio” recordings that sounded much worse than what we’re working on now.

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Recently, I discovered Mynoise.net by @Stéphane (Dr. P). Sometimes, when I cant sleep or need background noise for boring work, I use various background soundscapes. Here is my article about Mynoise from the blind users experience. Long post follows:

Getting Started


  • We won’t install or configure anything.
  • Simply open the page mynoise.netmynoise.net in your web browser.
  • Activate, for example, the link windSeaRainNoiseGenerator (wind, sea, and rain noise generator).
  • Since browsers block autoplay by default, enable focus mode and press the letter p twice. The first press pauses playback, and the second resumes it. At this point, you should already hear the sound of the sea and wind noise.

Here you can also try other soundscapes, such as Rain on a Tent or Fireworks. I recommend opening the Full List. The soundscapes are organized under headings.

Playback Control


At this point, the possibilities of Mynoise are just beginning. Each player can be customized. Although the ambiance differs, the controls are always the same. Let’s take another look at the previously mentioned Wind, Sea, and Rain Noise.

Presets


Under the heading Presets, you’ll find buttons with various predefined settings. Activating them changes the sound’s characteristics. For instance, you can choose Breaking Waves or Irish Summer.

Under User Stories, you’ll find user comments. By activating a comment, the sound’s parameters adjust to the same configuration used by that commenter.

How to Create Your Own Background


Let’s say you want to manually adjust the balance between wind, waves, rain, and so on. Each player consists of ten sliders whose volume you can control. Here’s how:

  • Enable focus mode in your screenreader.
  • Press Enter to deselect all sliders.
  • Choose one of the sliders using numbers 0–9.
  • Adjust the volume with the + or – keys.
  • Press Enter twice to deselect all sliders.
  • Choose another slider (0–9).
  • Adjust the volume again with + or –.
  • If you’re satisfied but find the overall sound too loud, you can lower the volume with J and raise it with K.
  • You can also generate a random setting by pressing the ? (question mark)key.


I Created a Beautiful Ambience—How Can I Return to It?


The author thought of that, too. Press B to find the Save as URL button. After pressing it, a URL containing your custom parameters will appear in an edit field. You can copy this link to your clipboard and save it as a bookmark. That’s how it works in Firefox. Chrome, on the other hand, will automatically reload the page with the new URL. You can share this URL as usual—for this article, I created This Noise as an example.

Can I Combine “Rain on a Tent” and a “Crackling Fireplace”?


Yes, and there are two ways to do it. If you’ve been experimenting with the site for a while, you might have opened one soundscape in one browser tab and another in a second tab. However, this setup is difficult to save or share. Fortunately, you can create a single page that combines multiple generators—up to ten soundscapes in one! This way, you can really make something like a Campfire in the Rain. Here’s how:

  • Open your first soundscape, e.g. Rain on a Tent.
  • Reset the sliders to zero and adjust them as you wish, as described earlier.
  • Press C to save your current setting.
    – In another tab, open the main Mynoise page and find your second soundscape.
    – Open a new generator, for example Fireplace.
    – Adjust everything again as you like.
    – Press C again to save it.
    – Use Shift+C to save all settings together.
    – The page will ask for a name.
    – Enter a name and confirm.
    – You can now save the page as a bookmark or copy and share the URL.


Mobile App


Unfortunately, Mobile app is not accessible for blind users yet. You can still use Mynoise in your smartphone’s web browser. The easiest way is to share the custom links you prepared on your computer. That way, you’ll always have your favorite sounds at hand—for example, to help you sleep.

The author also offers online radios featuring some of the sounds. You can find them in the RadioBrowser database by searching for Mynoise. Additionally, there’s a podcast called Pomodoro Sessions, so you can enjoy your favorite soundscapes right in your podcast app.

Conclusion


The author is open to discussing accessibility. Thanks to this, button labels have already been added to the player pages. To celebrate finishing this article—and your reading it all the way through—you can listen to Fireworks.

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On my side Microsoft 365 generates NDR when I send the message to non existing email address using outlook online but does not generate NDR when sending a message to same non existing email address from thunderbird or other app sending emails through microsoft 365 SMTP server.
This sounds strange to me and I can't find a way to make it generate NDR aka bounce messages for messages submitted through SMTP.
in reply to Peter Vágner
Oh, those NDR message are actually generated but they are delivered to spam folder.
Even after disabling backscatter protection under advanced antispam settings it's working like that.
These automatically generated messages can't be manipulated using transport rules, so I have no workaround for this issue.
in reply to Peter Vágner
yeah, it's annoying, I remember one saturday morning when someone from office called me because i forgot to send something. I actually did but by made mistake in email address. Then I realized that I have delivery status notification in spam.
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It's planned to add #AltText support for #Cover and #Banner of @Castopod@podlibre.social #Podcast.

@yassinedoghri@fosstodon.org currently added my proposal to Milestone 2:

code.castopod.org/adaures/cast…
Thanx! It would be a step forward to #a11y.
#Audio #Accessibility

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Apparently, it is expensive to peek into C structures from Python via pygobject, so better to cache the result in Python if it is going to be reused. My function is now more than 3x faster now that I'm doing this. gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/at-spi2…

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Cool so there's a new attack against the Signal protocol, specifically the PFS. You can keep requesting PFS prekeys from a user and once theyre drained you have a better shot at being able to break that layer of security but more interesting is that the time it takes to get the new prekeys indicates if the device is online or not, so this is a metadata leak

Whatsapp published the research. Unclear if this is only Whatsapp's implementation that they're discussing.

arxiv.org/pdf/2504.07323

This entry was edited (Tuesday, November 4, 2025, 5:56 PM)

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Oh wow. Some companies have a way to let their mail servers tell me they no longer want to work with me it seems 🙈 Was just sending out my updated profile to a list, and from one I got this:

450 4.7.1 The reputation filter deemed your email unworthy

F*CK AI, I guess? 🙊

OK, I'll have to accept that. If someone out there thinks I _might_ be worthy: after being in a project for almost 5 years, I'm available again for new projects – be it as Oracle DBA, or as coach in the Android section 😉

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in reply to Peter Vágner

@pvagner I know, I'm running a mail server myself. My toot was rather about the message text, not the code 😉 But thanks for the explanation, appreciate your being helpful! 🤗

For other readers:

* 5xx: permanent error
* 4xx: temporary error (try again)
* 3xx: further action required (by the client, not the human; like, "send the next package", or "go there to continue")
* 2xx: all fine

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Hear me out.

We fork Mumble server. We change the chat to be IRC. We use Obsidian IRC (web irc clone of discord) as the client. IRCv3 SASL EXTERNAL will let us auth the user using the same key identity mumble uses. Convert the Obsidian web to Tauri for cross platform desktop app.

That's it. Self-hosted Discord, now just improve the UI and invite people to rewrite in Rust and add storage backends for the chat history and nobody needs Discord ever again.

github.com/ObsidianIRC/Obsidia…

edit: ok we can't use Tauri because it won't work right on Linux, so we have to keep using Electron until some day we have a webview engine on Linux that has all required functionality (voice/video, good performance)

This entry was edited (Tuesday, February 10, 2026, 9:50 PM)

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Gerade auf Droidblind gepostet: Nach mehr als 5 Jahren: Eloquence für Android kehr zurück droidblind.de/blog/eloquence64

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Something very important to know in your threat model if you use Tor Browser on Windows:

By default it installs to your Desktop folder, which is by default mirrored to OneDrive at Microsoft. Microsoft has access to your OneDrive content for cybersecurity analysis via privacy carve outs. The Tor folder contains sensitive content.

The solution is to install at root of C: drive.

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Při své #degoogle jsem narazil na problém Waze. Používal jsem ho ještě za krále Klacka, nějaký cesty jsem se tam taky nakreslil, tak to byla srdcovka. Dlouho jsem hledal, aktuálně zkouším Magic Earth. Privacy oriented, založené na #osm, ukazuje to hustotu provozu a trasy super. #ios i #android

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I booked 4 beds in backpacker St. pauli hostel €175 for 26th 'till 31st. I still have 2 beds, for someone going to #39c3 ?
This entry was edited (Sunday, November 2, 2025, 7:35 PM)

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Time to introduce my last new project for this year:

«Zeroform» ... is a tool for generating minimalistic, self-hostable forms, with a twist: It can generate both static (html/css/js) and/or dynamic (php augmented) online forms.

My main motivation for zeroform is to create tooling that helps me gather more precise feedback while designing and developing (especially) #faircamp and #hyper8, and to do this in a way that reflects the values of those projects: Independence, simplicity, minimalism, freedom from maintenance, absence of tracking, etc.

Basically you start with a thought, put it down as a plaintext blueprint of the form/questionnaire/doodle/survey you have in mind, zeroform turns it into finished code and design, you can upload it, use it as long as its useful/needed, and then you can just delete it.

Think of it as your own google forms, without bigtech, without dependence on any infrastructure besides the cheapest of hosting plans, commissioned and decommisioned in a mere minute.

I'm now one week into the project, since today I'm developing in the open at codeberg.org/simonrepp/zerofor…, and I will put it to use in the next days already! I have roughly one more week reserved until the end of the year for making this usable for the general public - I'll announce when it's ready. ʕ◜0ᴥ0ʔ

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And it is all accessible with VoiceOver on iOS. I presume TalkBack on Android as well. @delta chaos.social/@delta/1154793927…


We hereby challenge _all_ other messaging apps, FOSS or not, to provide a more convenient private onboarding experience than #deltachat

1. Install app
2. "Create new profile"
3. Enter nick name, tap "Agree and continue"
4. Tap "+" and "new contact" and provide/scan qr code/link

Voila! A secure private chat, familiar to those coming from Whatsapp or Telegram (without "AI", with #a11y).

Note: chat identities are private and can not be queried or discovered. Servers keep no track or metadata


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in reply to Peter Vágner
@pvagner The desktop app is quite decent, although it's an Electron app. The one thing it is mising is a quick way to move between the panes, like the message pane and individual chat message history, and the entry field, via the keyboard, and a more efficient way than pressing tab a zillion times. Arrow key navigation within those lists and chats is already there.
I've just discovered Michal Hrušecký is talking about @Delta Chat on the @OpenAlt conference.
The talk is in czech.
He had a similar talk a few weeks ago:
talks.openalt.cz/openalt-2025/…

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We hereby challenge _all_ other messaging apps, FOSS or not, to provide a more convenient private onboarding experience than #deltachat

1. Install app
2. "Create new profile"
3. Enter nick name, tap "Agree and continue"
4. Tap "+" and "new contact" and provide/scan qr code/link

Voila! A secure private chat, familiar to those coming from Whatsapp or Telegram (without "AI", with #a11y).

Note: chat identities are private and can not be queried or discovered. Servers keep no track or metadata

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in reply to Delta Chat
How to add the mailserver of my ISP in the iOS client? It asks for a qr-code to scan. Should I list the smtp details into some format and transform that into a qr-code and scan that? I don't mind if I can then share that with the others (family) on my domain. But how?
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🪟 Windows 10 končí.

🖥️ Počítač nemusí běžet jen na Windows.
Existují otevřené systémy jako Linux, které zvládnou všechno od běžného používání po práci i kreativitu — a bez reklam, telemetrie nebo nucených účtů.

☁️ A data nemusí být v cizích rukou.
Služby jako Nextcloud umí nahradit Google Drive, Dropbox, Microsoft 365 i iCloud. Sdílení souborů, kalendář, kontakty, poznámky, chat, videohovory… všechno běží otevřeně a s respektem k uživatelům – tak, jak to děláme na Oscloud.cz.

💡 Oscloud.cz nabízí Nextcloud i další open-source aplikace pro běžné uživatele, firmy i komunity.
Bez reklam, bez sběru dat, s podporou v češtině.

Změna nemusí bolet. Jen začít pomalu — třeba od synchronizace souborů nebo kalendáře.
A zjistit, že svoboda není jen slovo, ale způsob, jak si technologie znovu přivlastnit.
oscloud.cz/
#opensource #nextcloud #linux #oscloud #privacy

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#OpenAlt2025 was the first conference I took my six-year-old daughter to. She really enjoyed it. She wasn't interested in the talks, but she loved the swag at the booths. She'll grow into them, though. You have to start early to raise a new generation of open-source enthusiasts. 🙂

#openalt

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Zítra nám držte palce. Čeká nás první velká streamovací akce. Ve spolupráci s @openalt budeme streamovat přednášky ze všech 7 místností konference #OpenAlt.
Pokud budete mít čas a nějaká přednáška v programu vás zaujme, zkuste se mrknout. Při sledování videa jej zároveň sdílíte s ostatními diváky jako u torrentu (pokud nejste na mobilním zařízení) a každý peer se tak počítá!

openalt.cz/2025/

#OpenAlt2025 #Brno

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It’s hard to believe, but courtesy of @jcsteh today NVDA 64-bit alpha builds finally added something truly interesting and useful. Technically, it’s not listed under New Features but under Changes, and it says:
In browse mode in web browsers, NVDA no longer sometimes treats controls with 0 visual width or height as invisible. This technique is sometimes used to make content accessible to screen readers without it being visible visually. Such controls will now be accessible in browse mode where they weren't before. What this means in practice is that some previously inaccessible controls in browsers are now reachable. For example, when renewing my home internet plan, I had to complete a captcha. The audio option for it never appeared in NVDA, even with object navigation. I had to rely on Be My Eyes volunteers to read it for me. Now, with NVDA Alpha 53246, I can finally access that control and hear the audio captcha myself. Sometimes small changes make a huge difference.
github.com/nvaccess/nvda/pull/…
@NVAccess

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in reply to Amir has moved
I don't get why it wouldn't have appeared in object navigation though. This change only stops browse mode rendering from ignoring 0 width/height objects, but object navigation never ignored those in the first place. Simple review might skip the object of interest for other reasons, but not 0 width/height, and disabling simple review should have picked it up. Still, it's much harder to find things that way on complicated websites.
in reply to Jamie Teh
Believe me, I did try hard with this audio captcha, but with object navigation/ exploration there was 0 chance of finding and activating it. Strangely, it appears as a blank line in NVDA's page buffer. So I should press Enter on the blank line to have the audio captcha played.
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What is the most #accessible windows GUI to build and query an SQLite database with a #screenreader? I'd rather avoid Access or Excel if I can. #blind#a11y#accessibility

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in reply to James Scholes
@jscholes Yeah probably. I just was hoping not to build a custom thingy, you know? Especially not a custom thingy that will get new data entered once every day or two for the next $years. Until something needs to change and someone, somewhere, will have to figure out the thingy again.
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For those interested in airport and airplane communication, here are interesting recordings. Note to Screenreader users, it takes a while to load liveatc.net/recordings.php

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I have another sizable update to my Image Description Toolkit available. In addition to supporting geolocation when available on photos, this version allows for the specifying of a web page and having images downloaded and described. Read more on this at theideaplace.net/image-descrip….

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{Edit: Numbered instructions.}
For anyone who does not want to use Vispero Accounts:
1. if needed, uninstall JAWS 2026 without removing shared components.
2. Create a new file named AdditionalSettings.ini in the same folder where you saved the setup package containing data starting from the ;.
3. launch the setup. 1/2

;; Source: J2026.2510.195.400-any.exe /ExtractAdditionalSettings AdditionalSettings.ini Default

;; Disable User Accounts support

[JAWS]MSIProperties=USERACCOUNTS=0

This entry was edited (Friday, October 31, 2025, 11:18 PM)

reshared this

in reply to Timothy Wynn
Thanks to @DavidGoldfield and @BTyson for reminding, to apply this file to an install, you must do the following:
1. This file must be named AdditionalSettings.ini.
2. This file must be copied into the same directory with the setup package before launching the install.
3. This file must be applied for every install and update. 2/2
This entry was edited (Friday, October 31, 2025, 11:19 PM)